Eyeconic's Impulse/Piazza project

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eyecon
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Eyeconic's Impulse/Piazza project

Post by eyecon » Thu Sep 29, 2011 3:51 pm

OK.
Image
Starting a new thread dealing with the work/modifications to be carried out from where rodavo left off before selling the car to me.
List of work to be carried out:
- relocate the battery to the rear left boot area. This will have 2 benefits (even out the front/rear balance a bit more, and to make way for intercooler piping through that area.
- install rodavo's custom twin XR6 turbo intercooler in the front airdam
- install a custom plenum chamber with VN throttle body (TB) soon to be cerami-coated Image Image
- complete the custom piping from the intercooler to the TB.
- repair the rust in the tailgate Image
- install a JDM 3 legged spoiler with the integral brake light Image (spoiler to be shipped from USA very soon)
- install a custom camshaft (supplied by rodavo)
- full dyno tune-up
- install a new headlining, which I have sitting in my garage ready to go
- install DRLs with integral turn signals at new locations, which will do away with the existing front parker and indicators at the front
- convert the existing headlights to JDM quad light versions (thanks to wedgenut) with blue halo ring headlamps and H4 65/55W Halogen lamps Image
- install a 2 DIN touchscreen DVD/MP3/navigation/Flux Capacitor, etc :) Image. System will be arriving soon.
- install new rear speakers
- install one of these two rear garnishes (haven't decided which one yet (garnishes to be shipped out with the spoiler).Image

Im still trying to get '88-'89 bonnet, but more on that later.

Will keep you guys posted.
Last edited by eyecon on Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:31 am, edited 5 times in total.

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Post by IZU069 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 4:13 pm

AGM battery I presume? (IE - you are aware of sealed externally vented enclosure for "internal" flooded batteries?)

And if using Optima, don't use a yellow for cranking!
[Not that I recommend Optima. Use Deka or others. Though for ~$500 I'd consider using the 100A (or 110A?) version of my ($670!!) 38AH Yuasa UXH38-12 UPS AGM (ie, the UXH100-12). Despite IMO not being suitable for cranking, these 11 year-old UXH38-12 Yuasa's have lasted 3-4 years in a Mitsubishi L300, and 1-2 years in my Wasp (albeit with a 4ZE1 reduction starter; the same as some Piazzas).]


But boot mounting should be reasonable easy. The +12V heavy to the starter motor, and a lesser gauge wire from there (starter) to the old battery +12V flinks - though I recommend newer plastic flinks...), and extend the alternator sense wire from the old battery (<wherever>) to the new battery's +12V post.


And in essence, I run headlights (via a flink) from the alternator (in my Wasp etc), but I cant recall the Piazza standard wiring - I think it is all from the battery.


Actually the dash voltmeter should be from the battery +12V terminal (and its -ve/earth from batt-), but I don't recall how that's wired. (And I haven't yet recovered my crashed PC data... But I have hardcopies...)


BTW - great if the boot is cooler.... Every 10°C drop doubles battery life (wrt temperature aging).
But then maybe compensate for the few tens-of-percent drop in battery capacity.


PS... I forgot to say "Eyeconic" - blood oath, and a ripper name!
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Post by Skrilla » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:15 pm

Can you post some more pic of that lovely silver JR?
If you boost it,they will run!!

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Post by eyecon » Thu Sep 29, 2011 5:51 pm

Hey there Skrilla. I'll put some pics up soon. I might take the car out of the workshop and go for spin somewhere. I've been looking for an excuse. BTW any news on that grille mate?

Izu069 I have little knowledge of batteries mate. AGM, flinks, etc, you're scaring me mate :). So what your saying is should maybe go for the 110A version using Deka or something similar. Is there any reason why you don't like Optima? My mechanic said that some form of ventilation will be required if positioning in the boot. What ever he does I presume it will be done properly because the car will have an engineers certificate against all the mods done.

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Post by IZU069 » Thu Sep 29, 2011 8:08 pm

Ah - where do I start? (Other than mentioning a well respected resource for battery info...? Not that I do that stuff on Aussie forums.)


"Normal" batteries are wet or flooded cells. These can be low maintenance types - ie, semi-sealed often with the "power-eye" green-clear-red/black "ball hydrometer" else traditional with easily removed caps.

"Sealed" batteries are typically AGMs (Absorbent Glass Mat, aka VRLA - Valve Recombinant Lead Acid) which have no free acid, or Gel-Cels which have jelly-like acid.

All above are Lead-Acid batteries (~2 Volts per cell, 6 cells = 6x2V = a 12V "monoblock" or battery).
The AGMs and Gels are "sealed" lead acids (SLA), though the term SLA can be misapplied (eg, to some semi-sealed aka Low Maintenance wets.) And SLAs are not "all the same" - viz: Gel versus AGM.

By law, any inside battery shall not vent gases (hydrogen) nor acid. Hence (generally) AGM & Gels are ok, but wets must be in a sealed enclosure which is vented to outside air (hence the common yet seemingly contradictory phrase "[/i]a sealed vented enclosure[/i]").
Inside/internal means inside cabins & boots (and caravans, certain boats, etc) but NOT the engine bay.

That covers the regulatory stuff (bad pun? Regs as in legal, not voltage regulation).

BTW - batteries last longer these days primarily due to the automotive industry increasing alternator output from 13.8V to 14.2V.
That's another story, though it segways beautifully into the next part - the bullshit and misunderstandings re batteries....

EGs:...

- a battery will not fully charge at 13.8V. (Bullshit, but they need more to recover from sulfation. But just buy my $400 dc-dc converter to be sure...)

- voltage must be increased for longer cables. (Bullshit, though voltage drops due to other loads is another matter. A battery accepts less current as it charges and its charge-current contributing voltage drop will approach 0V as its charge current approaches its fully charged current draw (aka float current) which is typically 0.1A to 2A for automotive batteries.)

- AGMs are good for high currents. Put it this way, because AGMs have a lower internal resistance (typically half that of wets), they can supply higher current (eg, twice the short-circuit current of wets - ie, half the resistance, therefore twice the current). BUT that does not mean they like it. High current surges from cranking and big audio systems etc will destroy AGMs faster than wets. (Partly due to internal resistance, partly because wets can evaporate fluid to cool down.) Hence why capacitors are required to preserve AGM life in big thumping audio systems (typically 3kW outputs and above).
A poor analogy to the last may be that your engine might put out more power at 10k RPM (especially with narrower big-end and main bearings), but that doesn't mean it likes doing it.


All batteries are divided into 2 groups - crankers (high current, low DOD (Depth of Discharge) and Deep Cycle (low current, high DOD). They are 2 different constructions - more thinner plates (for greater surface area hence more current) else fewer thicker plates (less current but greater "depth" of discharge).
Anything else is a compromise, though you can have a BIGGER deep cycle for cranking - ie, its "low" current is as big as the smaller cranker.

And all batteries should be recharged ASAP. The deeper the discharge (flattening) and the longer they are left, the more sulphate builds up on plates, and that damages batteries. [ Fresh "soft" sulphate can be removed electrically - hence the reconditioning or maintenance charges above 14.4V etc or high currents (>20A), but hard sulphate cannot - that requires mechanical removal (sometime achieved with vibration or pulsing charge currents). Hard sulfation tends to occur after one week (on average; depends on type, DOD, temperature, etc). And sulfation starts to occur as soon as the battery "is not fully charged" which - essentially means ~24 hours after a full recharge, but is generally considered negligible down to say 80% capacity (20% discharged) if not left too long....



Normally I deal with dual-battery systems. Now that is an area full of misunderstanding else hype (there is BIG money to be made!).
And without going into the crap about "priority charging" (which technically is total bullshit) and expensive voltage sensing or "Smart" isolators (forget diode & Shottky isolators!!!), and paralleling (or not) of same or different batteries, I'll summarise my recommendations as follows:

Keep the original cranking battery (wet) in the engine bay. Obtain whatever secondary battery(s) is required, and interconnect with an isolator. The isolator should isolate when NOT charging else, when not in use (eg, for winches & audio - assuming you can risk flattening your cranker - but no battery should be left in parallel when not required).

With that generalised summary comes the other considerations - ie, whether mounted externally or in the engine bay else internally, whether cranking or deep cycle (yes, they can be paralleled when charging), etc.

And there can be occasional tech details - like batteries requiring (charge) current limiting, or different voltages (antimony versus calcium versus AGM etc). But suffice to say, despite such technicalities (ie, battery specs), most batteries fare well despite preset vehicle charging voltages, and current limits being well and truly exceeded upon initial charging after cranking etc.
EG - I now get over 6 years life from my wet cells (~$100-$120) despite only recently (3 years ago?) upgrading to non-externally regulated alternators in my Wasp (as per the internally regulated alternators that the Piazza and modern cars have). My mum just retired her similar battery after 8 years (a "new" 1989 vehicle).


Now, Optima. AFAIAC, they were once good. But from my readings, they definitely went bad. Whether that's due to recycled lead or ownership changes, I don't care.
And the guys that supply my batteries reckon they won't touch them. Nor Odyssey. Too many failures and returns. They reckon Deka are the go. (Others reckon River<whatever>, but I think they were too expensive.)
For hot climates (Darwin), Sonnenchein (Gel-cels) if you can afford it, but that's probably overkill for cars anyhow.
I love my IMO "totally unsuitable" Yuasa UXH38-12 (38AH) AGM UPS battery which is now ~11 years old (another story, but obtained when 5 years old and only used in vehicles for the last 4 years), but at $670 replacement cost, I'd go for the UXH100-12 for ~$500 instead (yes, 100AH for $less, and cheaper than the $550 RRP of the Optima yellow-top 70AH - even IMO if bought for $450).


I'll spare the other money savers - like $5-$20 for an automated dual-battery isolator that has superior performance to voltage sensing isolators, or a 5c diode (or 2 for 10c) instead of spending $42 for the same just to boost your alternator output by ~0.6V (a certain Isuzuphile last night in his BMW should use that to boost his recalcitrant 13.8V charge voltage!).


Incidentally, a great source for battery info is Bill Darden's BattertFAQ at BatteryFAQ. I recommend downloading the ZIP as per instruction from the FAQ section 19 here. It can get updated every few months, but it's a great and concise battery read. I have yet to disagree with anything in it, though a few days ago I read some crap by another that likewise recommended and use the same source. (Alas I see how the misunderstandings arise, all I can say is Bill agrees with me and vice-versa.)
[ If you think we contradict, then let me know! Likewise if you need further clarification, or someone told you something. Bill also cleverly evades and delegates some of the issues I deal with, but I will take HIS technical detail rather than my own - but hat has only involved changing my cranker DOD limit from 30% to 20% (ie 80% of capacity) - in all else we either "don't disagree" I I just didn't know. ]

And the best info I EVER got about batteries was "They are more of an Art than a Science!". Too farken true, but it is surprisingly simple - in retrospect (after 1-score years and...).


Another short post brought to you by EOTUF.
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Post by Skrilla » Fri Sep 30, 2011 2:38 am

I fund somebody with a grill but hes slow on the response,so consider it done its only a matter of time.Any word on my parts amigo?
If you boost it,they will run!!

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Post by eyecon » Fri Sep 30, 2011 8:12 am

Skrilla, I'll have confirmation early next week buddy.

Izu069 would you recommend a crank or deep cycle battery in this application? Your last post seems a little bit shorter than normal old mate :)

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Post by IZU069 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:01 am

LOL! A cranker for cranking - end of story.
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Post by eyecon » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:17 am

Done. Thanks Peter.

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Post by IZU069 » Fri Sep 30, 2011 11:54 am

Yeah - sorry for the longie - its length surprised even me! (A problem running on auto LOL! Actually more linked to not having the info & links to send you to - I'm suffering data-recovery aversion.)
But there was a lot of info "in a nutshell". I should have split out the other FYI stuff. (Maybe I'll re-edit some day... The basics should be in a workshop submission along with links.)

Curiously, having lost my data, I have been web browsing more than usual.
I enjoyed seeing various confirmations (like a plethora of Optima bads - many using yellows for crankers [not that I'd use Optima anyhow]), but there was IMO a surprising amount of really bad & invalid stuff - especially from forum people deemed as knowledgeable being totally wrong but sucking in readers. (Simple "evolutions" that seem logical, but are invalid, thereby often falsely demolishing proper info, though of greater concern - costing followers much money and performance/reliability.)


Feel free to email for more direct info (I have lost all my emails & addresses until recovered), and telcon is often the best to cover and hone in on specifics.

I suspect you'll go AGM (sealed) rather than venting to the outside.
But wiring can still be opinionated - eg, earth thru chassis or a separate earth cable, and whether the alternator sense wire can go to the starter.
(The latter being that the starter cable will have a significant voltage drop during cranking, but when charging, that voltage drop should be insignificant (only battery recharge current being carried - the alternator supplies the loads from the front). Some people have a 2nd cable from the rear battery to the loads (fusebox & alternator) which is (usually) totally unnecessary and inferior to using the starter cable (which is heavier and hence less losses).

And some blow electrics because of small wire gauges. EG - a 1.5V drop between the alternator and battery (including the earth path!) which means the alternator often exceeds 16V which fries many electrics.

Also if you have a poor engine to chassis/battery ground, you may blow lots of things! (How's $7k worth of DVD players etc?) Hence why redundant/extra engine to chassis earth straps can be a good idea.


There I went again....
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Post by eyecon » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:22 pm

Not too bad mate. I'll talk to the mechanic about the AGM battery. He might have been thinking of re-using the existing battery when he was talking about venting and what not.

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Post by eyecon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 8:54 am

Here are the DRLs. I couldn't ask for a better fit if I made it myself. The DRLs also function as indicators and blink amber when switched on. The existing Parker/indicator location will be disabled, but I was thinking of using that space for some fog lights. Haven't thought that far yet.
Image
Image
Image
I tried to do it but i couldn't line up the DRLs properly with one hand while taking a picture with the other. They're meant to be slightly recessed, but you get my drift.

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Post by eyecon » Sat Oct 01, 2011 9:04 am

Here is rodavo's intercooler. I don'tt quite know why the inlet and outlet tubes are so small, but that will be changed. Dint ask me why half is painted black. Perhaps Dave can explain:
Image Image

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Post by rodavo » Sat Oct 01, 2011 11:10 pm

Inlet and outlet were the biggest that the fabricator who made the end tanks could fit (supposedly). I still think it will flow quite well. The reason for one black and one not......the black one is a standard XR6 factory intercooler as they came on the car (ie. painted black). The non painted one was a XR6 core that had custom end tanks welded on at the Garrett factory (they supply the intercoolers for Ford) for a custom job originally and hence never made it onto a Ford. I was going to paint the whole thing black anyway to detract attention.

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Post by eyecon » Sun Oct 02, 2011 12:54 pm

Awesome. Didn't know that. I suppose the tube diameter was limited to the thickness of the core.

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