Question about timing...

General Bellett, Gemini 75-98, Piazza 81-93, Bellel, Florian, 117 Coupe, Minx, Aska technical discussion.
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IZU069
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Post by IZU069 » Wed May 23, 2012 5:49 pm

Ditto.
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Post by impulsive » Thu May 24, 2012 1:46 am

wedgenut wrote:I'm sorry to tell you that looking at that video, either your timing is out by a mile, your valve timing is wrong or you have the firing order all fucked up. I am assuming here that you have the injector plugs in the right positions as well.
OK, I think valve timing is probably not off, simply because the couple times I did get it to run (where it hammered up to 3500 RPMs) before I started fiddling with timing again, it sounded good. I think I had the timing perfect at that point but was having some other problem.

My damn plug wires are in correctly. The order, from front to back of this vehicle, is 1-2-3-4, correct?

The injector plugs....hmmm, I wrote on them with a paint pen the numbers, before I tore down, and I am pretty sure they are all correct. They do not really reach and plug in right if you do not have them in the right order. I suppose that could be an issue anyways, I'll double check.

When I said close enough to start, I meant, that my timing is correct but might need to be "dialed in" to be perfect.

I hear what you are saying, but I simply can't see how my timing could be off. Maybe I have bad plug wire or cap or rotor that is giving me this headache.

Damnit, this is frustrating. I just don't see how my timing could be off.

#4 is at TDC. My marks on the cam pulley line up, my mark on the lower timing cover lines up. I put the dizzy in with the rotor pointing at the #4 contact in the cap, done. That is how I did it the first time and after that I was able to get it to start a couple times and run up to 3500 RPMs and sound good.

Bart
Last edited by impulsive on Thu May 24, 2012 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by archangel62 » Thu May 24, 2012 1:52 am

Re: Injector plugs, I'm fairly sure the Piazza would run batch-fire, correct me if I'm wrong, so they should all be squirting at the same time anyway, on a constant pulse that has nothing to do with injector timing. So (provided I'm right) I reckon you can rule that out.

Cam timing is easy to confirm. Turn the engine over by hand til the mark on the crank pulley is sitting square on 0. Remove the top timing cover (or, based on video, you might not have it fitted anyway). There should be a mark on the gear and a mark on the backing plate, and they should line up. I'm pretty sure it *isn't* vertical - just make sure the dots line up. If in doubt, you can remove the rocker cover and confirm with the cam. Remember, if you change the valve timing, turn the engine over by hand first!!! I can't emphasise that enough :)

Ignition timing. My recommendation would be to wear a thick glove, loosen off the dizzy nut and have someone crank while you make adjustments to the timing. Turn it to where it wants to run, then once it's running you can think about timing it right. Once it's running, remove and block off the vac advance and set it to uhh, 8BTDC? Or was it 10. Memory failing me here, but it'll say it in the manual and probably under the bonnet too. As soon as you plug in the vac advance, the timing will most likely advance loads to about 18deg BTDC - but ignore this, it's most important that you set it with the line removed and blocked.
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Post by archangel62 » Thu May 24, 2012 1:52 am

Oh, and last point, I don't suppose the car has anything weird like an immobiliser? Did you have it running before? Mine was reeeally hard to start and ran funny, turned out it had an immobiliser that didn't actually immobilse it - just made it run kinda shit.
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
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Post by impulsive » Thu May 24, 2012 2:06 am

archangel62 wrote:Re: Injector plugs, I'm fairly sure the Piazza would run batch-fire, correct me if I'm wrong, so they should all be squirting at the same time anyway, on a constant pulse that has nothing to do with injector timing. So (provided I'm right) I reckon you can rule that out.
I think you are right, as I thought I read that somewhere as well. Plus, like I said above, I labeled them with paint pen and I think I know how to count, at least up to #4. :rolleyes:
archangel62 wrote:Cam timing is easy to confirm. Turn the engine over by hand til the mark on the crank pulley is sitting square on 0. Remove the top timing cover (or, based on video, you might not have it fitted anyway). There should be a mark on the gear and a mark on the backing plate, and they should line up. I'm pretty sure it *isn't* vertical - just make sure the dots line up.
Yessir, this is what I have done, and this is why I have the upper timing cover off. The marks all line up perfect every time I rotate the engine over by hand, and if I stick a probe down the #4 spark plug hole, I can tell that I am at TDC on #4 when things line up. So I am damn certain my belt is on right and I am at TDC on #4.
archangel62 wrote:Ignition timing. My recommendation would be to wear a thick glove, loosen off the dizzy nut and have someone crank while you make adjustments to the timing. Turn it to where it wants to run, then once it's running you can think about timing it right. Once it's running, remove and block off the vac advance
OK, this I have not done, and also, I did mess with the idle set screw. Concerning these two issues:

1) The vac advance, can you explain this process a little better? Is this the first vacuum switching valve?

2) The idle set screw, I assume turning it clockwise all the way in will OPEN the throttle blades mechanically and turning the screw counter-clockwise out will let the throttle blades CLOSE? Starting from a turned all the way in position, how many turns out should I go? Meaning, where should I set the idle screw to 'begin' the process?
archangel62 wrote:As soon as you plug in the vac advance, the timing will most likely advance loads to about 18deg BTDC - but ignore this, it's most important that you set it with the line removed and blocked.
When you say blocked, just with my finger should do? Again, i assume we are talking about the VSV that has lines going to the throttle body and the charcoal canister, etc.

Thanks,

Bart
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Post by impulsive » Thu May 24, 2012 2:07 am

archangel62 wrote:Oh, and last point, I don't suppose the car has anything weird like an immobiliser? Did you have it running before? Mine was reeeally hard to start and ran funny, turned out it had an immobiliser that didn't actually immobilse it - just made it run kinda shit.
Immobiliser? Like an ignition kill switch? Nothing like that on this car. Only aftermarket parts are new stereo head unit and subwoofer.

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Post by IZU069 » Thu May 24, 2012 6:30 pm

impulsive wrote:My damn plug wires are in correctly. The order, from front to back of this vehicle, is 1-2-3-4, correct?
No engine has a firing order of 1234 (especially 4 cylinder engines!).

Try 1342.
And make sure you get the direction correct.
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Post by impulsive » Fri May 25, 2012 2:33 am

IZU069 wrote:
impulsive wrote:My damn plug wires are in correctly. The order, from front to back of this vehicle, is 1-2-3-4, correct?
No engine has a firing order of 1234 (especially 4 cylinder engines!).

Try 1342.
And make sure you get the direction correct.
Wait, now you are confusing me. Is this correct:

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I understand the "order of firing" is not 1-2-3-4, but I am talking about where my plug wires go in relation to the cap.

Bart
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Post by IZU069 » Fri May 25, 2012 9:52 am

Yes, you numbering is correct.
And the firing order is 1-3-4-2.
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Post by impulsive » Fri May 25, 2012 12:13 pm

OK, just checked spark. All four plugs fire fine, as I thought. I checked them all at the same time.

I think I am dealing with a fuel issue or weird timing issue. I lean towards fuel because timing is dead on. I think I might have the wrong injectors or plugged injectors.

Bart
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Post by wedgenut » Sat May 26, 2012 5:03 am

2) The idle set screw, I assume turning it clockwise all the way in will OPEN the throttle blades mechanically and turning the screw counter-clockwise out will let the throttle blades CLOSE? Starting from a turned all the way in position, how many turns out should I go? Meaning, where should I set the idle screw to 'begin' the process?
I think I need to clarify something for you. The idle SPEED set screw is not connected mechanically to anything. It is an air passage adjusting screw on top of the throttle body. If you are a adjusting a mechanically connected screw then you are messing with the throttle stop position and not the idle speed. The throttle stop screw is set at factory and sealed with a blob of paint. Do not adjust this screw for idle speed, it will fuck you up. If you have moved it then set it back to where it was.
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Post by impulsive » Sun May 27, 2012 3:45 pm

Yes, I know the difference between the throttle stop screw and the idle set screw. So could changing the idle set screw mess me up in any way? I did turn it from where it was originally. I have not messed at all with the stop screw, I know the one you are talking about, with a blob of red paint on it.

This morning I had some time to work on the car. I once again checked my timing setup and I feel that it is correct.

I also, just to eliminate the problem, pulled all 4 plug and laid them out on the air assembly and turned the lights off and had the wife crank. I saw nice, bright, clean sparks from every plug.

The car will still not start at all. The only thing I can think is that somehow it is not getting fuel. That said, I did do a test with some starting fluid sprayed into the intake while my wife cranked and got the same results, no start. But I think my plugs might have been flooded at that point so I cannot say for sure if my starting fluid test is worth a damn.

I guess my next step is to test fuel pressure. Anyone have any pointers for doing that? The manual shows the gauge hooked up to the hose after the pressure regulator and talks about checking the pressure with the VSV plugged and disconnected.

A mechanic friend of mine suggested that maybe the machine shop did not time the motor correctly. He said maybe my crank and cam are off a tooth or something to that effect. I don't see how that could be true, but if anyone has insight into that possibility I would like to hear it.

I am open to any suggestions at this point. I am still dealing with a straight up no start problem.

Thanks - Bart
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Post by archangel62 » Mon May 28, 2012 12:13 am

If those markers on the front main pulley and the cam gear are lining up perfectly with the dots and 0deg markers, the engine's physically timed right.

Personally, I'd tee a fuel pressure gauge in on either end of the rail - the pressure should be the same across it (unless you have a serious blockage). This is getting pretty in-depth but you could even try to get a multimeter on the injectors to measure the duty cycle. You could have fuel pressure, but the ECU might not be sending information to open up the squirters.

I'm leaning towards an ECU issue, if not fuel pressure. Also, how old's the fuel, and does it stink? You might have answered this already, but did you have the car running before you pulled it down? And if so, how long ago was it?

If you've tried pumping the gas while cranking, then it idle settings wouldn't have any effect.
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car

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Post by impulsive » Mon May 28, 2012 1:42 am

The car was running fine before the tear down. But it was time for the refresh because it was leaking from everywhere and the coolant was paste.

The car sat, with about 1/4 of a tank of gas for about 18 months. Around 8 months, I realized the car will be sitting for a good spell more, so I added some Sta-Bil fuel system stabilizer to the tank. Before I tried starting the car, I added 5 gallons of fresh fuel. I also installed a new fuel filter. I think bad gas might give me a headache in one way or another, but it would not cause the car to straight up not start.

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Post by hop » Fri Jun 01, 2012 2:46 pm

Hi,

Iv quickly read over the thread,

Is there any chance you have put the fuel lines on backwards?

The feed into the rail should come up from the hardline then join straight onto the rail with fuel hose.

The regulator should be on the return end which should be closest to the front of the car.

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