Hey guys
After just watching the news and fnding out that John Howard has left the fuel prices at the same height which is over 130+ cents per litre (not sure bout your prices), so i have was just able a couple of things.
Just wondering if its possible to run a piazza (turbo) on gas?
would it have more or less performance?
So yeh if you could get back to me on your views and your input that would be awsome.
Cheers
Josh
!!Howard the countries looser!!
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WA Piazza
- Junior Member
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: perth - Western Australia
!!Howard the countries looser!!
-Holden Piazza-
looking at 300bhp to 350bhp with a T03
Cant wait til Perths Woop Ass Wednesdays
looking at 300bhp to 350bhp with a T03
Cant wait til Perths Woop Ass Wednesdays
my opinion is that if a car doesnt come out of the factory with straight gas, than don't do the conversion.
Engines run with petrol most of their lives and than switch to gas usually coz problems. It's like feeding a 60 year old vegitarian food.
Engines run with petrol most of their lives and than switch to gas usually coz problems. It's like feeding a 60 year old vegitarian food.
LESS SHOW, MORE GO!!
2009 | 1986 White Piazza 2.2L, Man, STi Turbo (SOLD)
2006 | 1986 Black Piazza Turbo Manual (SOLD)
2005 | 1986 White Piazza Turbo Auto (Pain in the ass)
2004 | 1986 White Piazza Manual Stock
2004 | 1986 Red Piazza Manual TO3, Haltech
2001 | 1986 Silver Piazza Manual Turbo
2009 | 1986 White Piazza 2.2L, Man, STi Turbo (SOLD)
2006 | 1986 Black Piazza Turbo Manual (SOLD)
2005 | 1986 White Piazza Turbo Auto (Pain in the ass)
2004 | 1986 White Piazza Manual Stock
2004 | 1986 Red Piazza Manual TO3, Haltech
2001 | 1986 Silver Piazza Manual Turbo
Well i guess you could try it but it will wear your engine more and you will have around %20 less power on gas. Also you will have problems cold starting and all the shit what comes with gas..
Rather get some solar pannels and a washing machine motor
Rather get some solar pannels and a washing machine motor
LESS SHOW, MORE GO!!
2009 | 1986 White Piazza 2.2L, Man, STi Turbo (SOLD)
2006 | 1986 Black Piazza Turbo Manual (SOLD)
2005 | 1986 White Piazza Turbo Auto (Pain in the ass)
2004 | 1986 White Piazza Manual Stock
2004 | 1986 Red Piazza Manual TO3, Haltech
2001 | 1986 Silver Piazza Manual Turbo
2009 | 1986 White Piazza 2.2L, Man, STi Turbo (SOLD)
2006 | 1986 Black Piazza Turbo Manual (SOLD)
2005 | 1986 White Piazza Turbo Auto (Pain in the ass)
2004 | 1986 White Piazza Manual Stock
2004 | 1986 Red Piazza Manual TO3, Haltech
2001 | 1986 Silver Piazza Manual Turbo
-
WA Piazza
- Junior Member
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: perth - Western Australia
lol how would the washing machine motor and solar panels work?Chris wrote:Well i guess you could try it but it will wear your engine more and you will have around %20 less power on gas. Also you will have problems cold starting and all the shit what comes with gas..
Rather get some solar pannels and a washing machine motor
josh
-Holden Piazza-
looking at 300bhp to 350bhp with a T03
Cant wait til Perths Woop Ass Wednesdays
looking at 300bhp to 350bhp with a T03
Cant wait til Perths Woop Ass Wednesdays
Dont agree with chris.
Well i do about the possible problems you might get in a worn motor. But only if it was totaly shagged and if it was running petrol it would be running crap too.
I also agree about dual fuel set ups. Seeing as the motor was initially a petrol motor it will be biased to run better on petrol, so you wont get the max economy and power that you can out of straight LPG.
One thing chris didnt mention is that with dual fuel youve got to have an extra tank in the car to hold the Gas. So a Piazza wouldnt be a happy car to fit dual fuel too.
Ive owned a few dual fuel cars and struck some troubles, mostly maintinace issues. Im not much of a dual fuel fan. I am a fan of straight LPG.
*************************************************************
If you were to convert the piazza to straight Gas you would be in front.
First a little about LPG.
You need three major things.
Tank, to hold the gas under pressure.
Converter, to convert the liquid to gas.
Mixer, to deliver the gas and mix it with the air.
LPG has different burning properties to petrol so you need to alter a few things to maximize burning the LPG. LPG has a higher octane rating than petrol, but it is lower in BTU (British Thermal Units) per litre than petrol. Hence you get a bigger bang but you use more. So it works to use LPG in a dual fuel arrangement as its lower cost per litre means that you can waste a certain amount and still run the car for less than running it on petrol.
The difference in Octane and the BTU ratings is not comparable as at atmospheric pressure one is a gas and the other is a liquid. Its just that the LPG is stored as a liquid for conveniance and distribution. Hence they both equate back to litres for purchase. As a rule ive found that you use 35-40% more gas than petrol in litres for a dual fuel setup. So at less than half the price your still in front. These days with petrol at over $1.30 and gas at less than 50c your way in front.
With a straight gas set up done properly you should see litre figures under 30%.
The next major consideration is that Petrol has to be atomised (either by a carby or an injector) to mix with oxygen to burn efficently. LPG is a gas at atmosphere so you dont need to help it atomize.
LPG is cleaner that petrol, it doesnt make as many nasties when you burn it and it isnt subject to any pollution emmision controls like petrol. The same also applies inside the motor, oil in a motor that has done 20,000km on gas will still be clean and yellow. You need to keep an eye on when its due to be changed. The oil doesnt get dirty but it does break down.
As far as engine conversions go, using LPG as the fuel can help you get around EPA requirements for rego/engineering.
There is one draw back, because gas is not wet like fuel you get higher combustion temps during/after burning. This is not an issue in an alloy head motor with inserted valve seats, more an issue in old cast iron heads that had no seats, simmilar to issues that people might face today running ULP in old cars.
Just a short note, its not off topic but has little to do with the question.
The Yanks refer to LPG as Propane. Thats because originaly it was straight Propane gas that was used in auto conversions. Up until a few years ago if you bought from a now defunct ElGas bowser you got straight propane. The Government here saw fit to allow mixing Butane with Propane for automotive use. This mixture is akin to PULP for the old straight Propane and ULP for the Butane/Propane mix. There is also a small percentage of other gas, the name escapes me, thats allowed in the LPG mix. Any variance in the percentage mixture of the gases that make up the brew can affect the way the car goes. Thats if your going hardcore, but you can still buy straight propane, its a few cents a liter dearer and not readily available. Theres a place up in Campbellfeild on the hume highway, i think its called GoGas, its green and they sell just gas. Both car and retail bottles.
*************************************************************
Enough crap.
To do it right you need to take into consideration a few things. Thats provided youve got the right gas gear to do the job. Good mixer and converter package suited to the particular motor. Efi cars are easy to convert to straight gas, generaly they have a good manifold design for it and its easy to swap the throttle body for a mixer and in most cases retain the std air cleaner and plumbing for it. Thats provided the EFI car has provision for a distributor other wise you need to run an igniton computer.
Its a different fuel (its a gas not a liquid) so to optomize its usage you have to set the motor up differently. IE: tune it with the internals.
The ignition is the first. You need to run more initial advance and less advance at revs, this usualy involves removing the vaccume advance. Best to get a properly set up or regraphed distributor.
The next would be the cam. Not a hard thing to do in an Isuzu SOHC motor. Gas burns different so you need to optimize for different cylinder filling charecteristics.
The next would be the compression ratio. Idealy somewhere in the 10-11:1 range. Dont quote me. Im no expert, PM Poida he knows more than me. Of course if it was a turbo motor you would have to work out with boost what your compression ratio would work out to be. Im not sure what it is, 1 full point of CR for every 5lbs of boost. Poida would know hes doing a G161Z turbo straight LPG motor.
If youve gone that far you next need to look at how LPG works. Its a gas and to go from a liquid to a gas it generates cold. So you dont need any manifold/runner heating, this warms up your intake temps for no reason as gas doesnt need heat to help atomisation like petrol, because its a gas already.
Piazza bonus
With straight gas you get to
Ditch the computer and all that wiring and all the polution stuff.
Bolt a mixer straight on the inlet manifold with an appropriate adapter plate. Run the right boost referenced converter.
Run more boost because the intake temps are lower and the octane higher. With the right cam and a good ignition you will leave a petrol car for dead.
Piazza drawbacks
The tank, you will use more litres and theres no room for a dual fuel second tank.
It wont be ling now till the money grabbing pollies start charging taxes similar to the ones on petrol. I think 2007 is the start date so it wont be as economical to use gas.
Another semi relavant fact.
Australia uses more petrol than it finds each year.
Australia finds more gas than it uses each year.
Cant remember the figures quoted, i heard it on the old man ABC radio today. It was the oppositions, natural recources minister that said it in an interview.
Sorry about the Essay, you asked Josh
.
Cheers. Bob.
Well i do about the possible problems you might get in a worn motor. But only if it was totaly shagged and if it was running petrol it would be running crap too.
I also agree about dual fuel set ups. Seeing as the motor was initially a petrol motor it will be biased to run better on petrol, so you wont get the max economy and power that you can out of straight LPG.
One thing chris didnt mention is that with dual fuel youve got to have an extra tank in the car to hold the Gas. So a Piazza wouldnt be a happy car to fit dual fuel too.
Ive owned a few dual fuel cars and struck some troubles, mostly maintinace issues. Im not much of a dual fuel fan. I am a fan of straight LPG.
*************************************************************
If you were to convert the piazza to straight Gas you would be in front.
First a little about LPG.
You need three major things.
Tank, to hold the gas under pressure.
Converter, to convert the liquid to gas.
Mixer, to deliver the gas and mix it with the air.
LPG has different burning properties to petrol so you need to alter a few things to maximize burning the LPG. LPG has a higher octane rating than petrol, but it is lower in BTU (British Thermal Units) per litre than petrol. Hence you get a bigger bang but you use more. So it works to use LPG in a dual fuel arrangement as its lower cost per litre means that you can waste a certain amount and still run the car for less than running it on petrol.
The difference in Octane and the BTU ratings is not comparable as at atmospheric pressure one is a gas and the other is a liquid. Its just that the LPG is stored as a liquid for conveniance and distribution. Hence they both equate back to litres for purchase. As a rule ive found that you use 35-40% more gas than petrol in litres for a dual fuel setup. So at less than half the price your still in front. These days with petrol at over $1.30 and gas at less than 50c your way in front.
With a straight gas set up done properly you should see litre figures under 30%.
The next major consideration is that Petrol has to be atomised (either by a carby or an injector) to mix with oxygen to burn efficently. LPG is a gas at atmosphere so you dont need to help it atomize.
LPG is cleaner that petrol, it doesnt make as many nasties when you burn it and it isnt subject to any pollution emmision controls like petrol. The same also applies inside the motor, oil in a motor that has done 20,000km on gas will still be clean and yellow. You need to keep an eye on when its due to be changed. The oil doesnt get dirty but it does break down.
As far as engine conversions go, using LPG as the fuel can help you get around EPA requirements for rego/engineering.
There is one draw back, because gas is not wet like fuel you get higher combustion temps during/after burning. This is not an issue in an alloy head motor with inserted valve seats, more an issue in old cast iron heads that had no seats, simmilar to issues that people might face today running ULP in old cars.
Just a short note, its not off topic but has little to do with the question.
The Yanks refer to LPG as Propane. Thats because originaly it was straight Propane gas that was used in auto conversions. Up until a few years ago if you bought from a now defunct ElGas bowser you got straight propane. The Government here saw fit to allow mixing Butane with Propane for automotive use. This mixture is akin to PULP for the old straight Propane and ULP for the Butane/Propane mix. There is also a small percentage of other gas, the name escapes me, thats allowed in the LPG mix. Any variance in the percentage mixture of the gases that make up the brew can affect the way the car goes. Thats if your going hardcore, but you can still buy straight propane, its a few cents a liter dearer and not readily available. Theres a place up in Campbellfeild on the hume highway, i think its called GoGas, its green and they sell just gas. Both car and retail bottles.
*************************************************************
Enough crap.
To do it right you need to take into consideration a few things. Thats provided youve got the right gas gear to do the job. Good mixer and converter package suited to the particular motor. Efi cars are easy to convert to straight gas, generaly they have a good manifold design for it and its easy to swap the throttle body for a mixer and in most cases retain the std air cleaner and plumbing for it. Thats provided the EFI car has provision for a distributor other wise you need to run an igniton computer.
Its a different fuel (its a gas not a liquid) so to optomize its usage you have to set the motor up differently. IE: tune it with the internals.
The ignition is the first. You need to run more initial advance and less advance at revs, this usualy involves removing the vaccume advance. Best to get a properly set up or regraphed distributor.
The next would be the cam. Not a hard thing to do in an Isuzu SOHC motor. Gas burns different so you need to optimize for different cylinder filling charecteristics.
The next would be the compression ratio. Idealy somewhere in the 10-11:1 range. Dont quote me. Im no expert, PM Poida he knows more than me. Of course if it was a turbo motor you would have to work out with boost what your compression ratio would work out to be. Im not sure what it is, 1 full point of CR for every 5lbs of boost. Poida would know hes doing a G161Z turbo straight LPG motor.
If youve gone that far you next need to look at how LPG works. Its a gas and to go from a liquid to a gas it generates cold. So you dont need any manifold/runner heating, this warms up your intake temps for no reason as gas doesnt need heat to help atomisation like petrol, because its a gas already.
Piazza bonus
With straight gas you get to
Ditch the computer and all that wiring and all the polution stuff.
Bolt a mixer straight on the inlet manifold with an appropriate adapter plate. Run the right boost referenced converter.
Run more boost because the intake temps are lower and the octane higher. With the right cam and a good ignition you will leave a petrol car for dead.
Piazza drawbacks
The tank, you will use more litres and theres no room for a dual fuel second tank.
It wont be ling now till the money grabbing pollies start charging taxes similar to the ones on petrol. I think 2007 is the start date so it wont be as economical to use gas.
Another semi relavant fact.
Australia uses more petrol than it finds each year.
Australia finds more gas than it uses each year.
Cant remember the figures quoted, i heard it on the old man ABC radio today. It was the oppositions, natural recources minister that said it in an interview.
Sorry about the Essay, you asked Josh
.Cheers. Bob.
Too many Piazzas to little money.
Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
-
WA Piazza
- Junior Member
- Posts: 49
- Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2005 12:39 am
- Location: perth - Western Australia
lol bob sall good
well atleast i have more information and alot more other stuff to look at if im gona go get it done. Yeh and the LPG prices are 43 cents per litre over here which is quite reasonable.
well cheers for all tghat info but even tho it was essay u basically answer everything i was goin to ask lol Dam man u a mind reader (dont forget i am about 1000kms+ away):P lol
cheers man
Josh
well atleast i have more information and alot more other stuff to look at if im gona go get it done. Yeh and the LPG prices are 43 cents per litre over here which is quite reasonable.
well cheers for all tghat info but even tho it was essay u basically answer everything i was goin to ask lol Dam man u a mind reader (dont forget i am about 1000kms+ away):P lol
cheers man
Josh
-Holden Piazza-
looking at 300bhp to 350bhp with a T03
Cant wait til Perths Woop Ass Wednesdays
looking at 300bhp to 350bhp with a T03
Cant wait til Perths Woop Ass Wednesdays
one of my mates is an engine builder and they have been flat out setting up cars for gas, all they do is put in hardened valve seats and brass guides, i know people that have done this to there engine, run straight gas and never miss a beat. the best prefromer is a guy who has a 4.2 running 11.7 on straight gas so it is very possible to get good power from gas
