Major service time...

General Bellett, Gemini 75-98, Piazza 81-93, Bellel, Florian, 117 Coupe, Minx, Aska technical discussion.
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GeminiCoupe
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Major service time...

Post by GeminiCoupe »

Final coats should be done this week on the paintjob, then its off to roadworthy. Just wondering what people think is a good idea to do before getting it on the road, along with any possible recomendations for brands. Already done oil and plus, thinking of:

-bleeding and adjusting clutch [brand/grade?]
-bleeding brakes [heard the Motul stuff is good, anyone?]
-handbrake adjustment
-change gearbox and diff oil
-change pwr steering fluid and coolant

Any other suggestions? Not sure what condition the brake pads are in [havent pulled the wheels off yet, cant fucking find the crossbrace], is there anything else i should really look at?

Also, with adjusting the clutch - right now the pedal is all the way down to the floor [ie engages just off the floor], im assuming there isnt any real air-locks in the lines as its never crunched/not engaged. Does the Piazza have the adjustment on the master/slave pushrod to change the pedal take up point? If so, how do i go about adjusting it?

Two of my tyres need replacing for roadworthy so i might have some skidvids soon for Bob :supz:

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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wedgenut
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Post by wedgenut »

Nick
It sounds like your slave cylinder might not be returning fully. The pushrod isn't adjustable. If the piston sticks in the cylinder you will get the symptom you have described. Either that or the pressure plate is on the way out. Disconnect the return spring and remove the slave cylinder and see iif it is operating properly.

I don't get too hung up on brands of oil or fluid but remember the gearbox takes engine oil, not gear oil.
Not sure what your RWC agenda is like over there but here thay are obsessed with seat belts not retracting, brake hoses being perished and shock absorbers that are sloppy. Rightly so i guess on all points. Worth a look at the brake hoses if you are going to be bleeding the brakes anyway.
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Post by Rodeobob »

If your seat belts dont retract properly hit em with some silicone spray on the belt itself that usualy helps em retract.

Im with Alex, wont matter what oil as long as its the right grade. Probably wouldnt hurt to do all the fluids seeing as its been sitting about and history is unknown.

Ive got a pair of rims here with good tyres if you need to borrow em. Ive also got a pair of 195/60/14 Michelin tyres here that i bought. Picked em up when it was dark and got em home and they are a little perished with age cracks between the tread blocks. Could sell you them cheap to fit after the RWC. I was just going to fit em to a set of keep it off the ground stockies.

I picked up my set of 14x8" ford steel rims today. All i need now is a bit of time to make a jig to put the 4x100 centres in them. Woo Hoo. Too busy getting ready to move. Boo Hoo.

Cheers. Bob.
Too many Piazzas to little money.

Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
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GeminiCoupe
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

wedgenut wrote:It sounds like your slave cylinder might not be returning fully. The pushrod isn't adjustable. If the piston sticks in the cylinder you will get the symptom you have described. Either that or the pressure plate is on the way out. Disconnect the return spring and remove the slave cylinder and see iif it is operating properly.
Obviously id be doing that before bleeding the clutch right, as removing it and checking operation would fill the lines with air? What sort of things am i looking for [ie visible piston travel in bore etc?], ive only played with cable clutches before so i dont know shit about hydros. Any other slaves off other 4Z boxes bolt up?
wedgenut wrote:I don't get too hung up on brands of oil or fluid but remember the gearbox takes engine oil, not gear oil.
I always thought it was gear oil, every box ive ripped the tail shaft out of has had the green stuff [diff oil] pour out of it. What sort of grade am i looking for here, semi synth or mineral?

Thanks for the offer on the tyres bob, if i cant convince my cousin to lend me his wheel [golf 14" rims, brand new tyres - similar offset to Gemini] then ill pinch yours off you for a day or two. Either way ill be replacing the two tyres that need it, so watch out for a skid vid soon...

Cheers boys.

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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Post by wedgenut »

Obviously id be doing that before bleeding the clutch right, as removing it and checking operation would fill the lines with air? What sort of things am i looking for [ie visible piston travel in bore etc?], ive only played with cable clutches before so i dont know shit about hydros. Any other slaves off other 4Z boxes bolt up?

Clutch is straightforward and I guess it is easier to go right throuigh if you don't fall asleep with boredom. When pedal is out and all is well the clutch fork is in the fully relaxed position so remove the return spring if it has one and check for a little bit of free play between the fork and the pushrod. Only a MM or two. Any more and you have a problem either with the clutch pressure plate, the release bearing or the slave cylinder piston sticking but this is fairly unusual. You said that you were getting take up almost immediately the pedal lifts off the floor but no drag with the pedal in. That would point to maybe master cylinder piston sticking more than the slave or again a stuffed pressure plate Hydraulic clutches are self adjusting so as the clutch wears the piston comes further down to keep the pushrod in close position to the fork. Hence the need to top up the fluid with general wear. If the free play is correct and the piston seems to be operating it might just be air in the system so bleed it through. Get someone to Pump the pedal a few times and hold it down while you are watching the slave operate. While it is held down open the bleed screw and you should see the pushrod ease back into the cylinder but you probably won't because of thebrake fluid that squirted into your eye! Once you have stopped screaming repeat the operation a few times until. you have new clean fluid coming through and lock it up and see if it is any better. if not you gonna have to look deeper.



I always thought it was gear oil, every box ive ripped the tail shaft out of has had the green stuff [diff oil] pour out of it. What sort of grade am i looking for here, semi synth or mineral?
The recommended oil for the gearbox is good old SAE10W-30 engine oil. I wouldn't pay the xtra for synthetic as i don't believe it needs it and you cannot fully empty all the old out of the box without stripping it down in reality and some synthetics are not compatable with mineral oils and may get a breakdown of the lubrication film. Buy a bit extra of whatever you are putting in the engine and that will do nicely. If your gearbox is in good nik it will be fine for years, if it isn't no amount of fancy oil or additives will fix it for you. Don't whatever you do listen to the hype about power up or superslip and all those other hocus pocus additives. They will glue up your synchros. Ask anyone who has put gear oil in by mistake. they don't need it they just don't like it!

I have never understood the guys that stick in the additives that claim " STOP THOSE ANNOYING OIL LEAKS ON YOUR GARAGE FLOOR" Yeah right, it usually doesn't work and DUH! guess what, a new seal is probably half the price of the additive and is almost guaranteed to work without having to add dr strangeloves magic elixer of shit and banana skin extract. I'll stop ranting now but if you wanna discuss it more set a time and we will meet up in the chat room as no one else is using it for much anyway. Just remember we are a few hours ahaead and I don't function well when I'm asleep ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ
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Post by Rodeobob »

kiwi-nonsense wrote:Insert the big rant by alex right here
I hadnt moved my Piazza from where it sat for a good three months. I moved it last week to cut the grass. When i jumped in to start it i pushed the clutch in and it stuck at the floor. I had to hook my toe under it, pull it back up and pump it a few times for it to work properly. Had no drama pulling the car up on to the concrete and then backing it back to where it came from after the grass was cut. It worked fine.
Some sort of hydraulic system not being used ageing and what not i would rekon.

As far as im aware all the 4Z hydraulic slave cylinders are the same. As for the master well who knows but id say the internals share the same kit, the cylinder itself could be close to what the Shuttle runs, its got a remote res as well and connects to it via a banjo bolt. Ive not had a good look at how the res ataches to the top of a TF master;

Peter Askerog got himself a TF Rodeo slave cyl and master from a ute at the wreckers, it might pay to chase him up and see if you can pay him a visit with your master and slave in hand. There is a guy on eBay that has new master and slave for a TF as a job lot for under $80. Ive dealt with him before and im sure he could hook you up with just a slave if you need one. For that money i wouldnt piss around with kits. If you want to get in touch with him let me know and i will chase up his name for you. It was RAP or something. Ringwood Auto Parts.

Let me know what you sort out because going on the story above i will have to do the same as you.

Cheers. Bob.
Too many Piazzas to little money.

Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
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Post by wedgenut »

BOB THE BUILDER WROTE
There is a guy on eBay that has new master and slave for a TF as a job lot for under $80.
You can sometimes get slaves from ebay for $10 but shipping/handling etc stuffs the bargain a bit. The slave and master are different bores and kits are hard to get but IPTOC reckons thay have them. There are two different types of Slave but I think the bore is the same. One is plain vanilla and the other has the little solenoid on the end that is interlocked with 1st gear position which through magic and trickery stops you dropping the clutch with spinny wheels intention but most normal people have cut those wires long ago so if you see wires stuck to the back of your slave don't panic. CUT THEM OUT LIKE A NASTY WART. I couldn't get a kit for my master cyl so i just went to BNT and bought a standard 5/8" ring seal for the piston ( yes they are imperial sized ) probably a throw back from Hillman Minx days LOL . If absolute worst happens drop them into a brake specialist who can sleeve and kit them to generic metric bore. It is usually cheaper than buying a new cylinder, if you can get one! But I tend to belong to the Bob school of thought and would find something else that fits or nearly fits and adapt it. I can give you all the measurements of both if you like, bolting size and arrangement, pushrod length and clevis etc. if you want to go hunting before you take anything off.
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Post by Bugle »

PBR have master cyl kits I got one of those.. I think I might go do the slave while i'm at it they should have those as well.

Might be a good idea to do the timing belt while doing your service. It's pretty easy to do.
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Post by wedgenut »

PBR have master cyl kits I got one of those.. I think I might go do the slave while i'm at it they should have those as well.
If you can let me know the PBR part numbers for those kits I would appreciate it, they are all 14 years old and thick over here in parts places. If I have the numbers I can avoid the little scroats stupid damn questions.
Ta
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Post by Bugle »

Yeah all the part numbers are here down the bottom
http://www.isuzupiazza.com/supplier.html
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Post by IZU069 »

Goddam - who used my name - it's supposed to be anonymous (mainly for lawsuits since I have a silent phone number).
At least it ain't spellt right. But FYI, I may often denote myself as "the Arse-Cog" - it's close enough to both realities (ie, spelling and my character).

Regarding hydraulic seals for brakes & clutches, often just getting the right diameter and seal type (donut or cup) is adequate if other bits aren't required. I have kit problems for my old Isuzus, GT Bellett disk calipers etc. I can get seals, but not dust seals, springs, washers blah blah blah.

When assembling, check that there isnt too much "seal friction". I recently replaced the leaking cup in my Wasp clutch slave. It wouldn't return nicely. The seal had a rounded sealing face and was too tight in the bore. I replaced it with a more standard seal - ie, with normal "sharp" ends.

Also with any system - especially when bleeding - be wary if pressing the pedal (master cyl) to the floor. If this hasn't been done (or bled) for a while, the crap or rust/oxidisation that builds up in the unused part of the cylinder can hold the seal down. The same applies if pushing in slave cylinders and disk calipers.
This can sometimes be fixed by "reverse bleeding" - ie, attach a suitable hose with fluid (ie, brake fluid - else water in emergency TEMPORARY situations - NEVER (engine etc) oil!) to a bleeder nipple (slave or wheel brake etc) and force the fluid into the line. But this is temporary only.....

In such cases I'll usually strip and clean the system because the seal may be damaged (and soon fail). In addition, I don't want crap in there - especially if my system leaks and gets pumped to the floor, and then seizes. This is more of an issue in my older Isuzu single-circuit brake systems (ie, no brakes!).

Of course as we all know, only qualified people should work on braking systems. Whilst I may overhaul my masters, slaves & calipers and use very fine emery paper to clean out the bore surfaces (around the bore - not up&down; cleaning thoroughly afterwards with soap and water to remove emery granules before lubing with brake-rubber lube) - this is dangerous and possible illegal. [ie - Disclaimer - DO NOT do what said I have done - it's dangerous likey to be illegal.]

Other UNAUTHORISED tips:
When bleeding, I do not push pedals "hard" until most of the air is out - I reckon it causes the air to dissolve (bubble) into the fluid. I start bleeding with partly open bleeder valves and repeatedly push the pedal "lightly" until all points are bled free of big air pockets. I usually start this at the master (done before fitting to vehicle if it was removed; else at its exits or nearby connection blocks by just loosening the hydraulic lines) and repeat until I reach the bleeder hydraulically futhest from the master. I then do the hard-pedal-pressure bleed in the reverse order (but skipping the master) in accordance with most recommendations for bleeding.
After bleeding, I reset dual-circuit brake master cylinders if required (ie, Isuzu etc after 1970-ish). Dual-circuit masters have a "stopper" that will stop the leaking master section (piston) being used. This is so that single fluid reservoirs don't empty, or so the pedal doesn't go to the floor (also to limit fluid leaking on brake pads, paintwork, roads etc. I'm not sure yet about Piazzas, but for other vehicles this often involves loosening a bolt or similar until it resets - ie, a click is heard. This "bolt" is usually in the middle of the master (between the front & rear circuits or outlets; usually underneath) or sometimes in separate hydraulic "junction blocks". In many vehicles, it may also have an electrical connection to it as this "stop lock" also controls a dash light or similar to indicate a brake fault - this won't cease until reset.
If fluid is lost during this resetting, a bleed may be required.

Again, refer to qualified personnel. Even mixing fluids (Dot-3, Dot-4) can be hazardous. And don't mix silicon fluids with vegetable and other hydraulic oils. (I use water in emergencies until I can bleed the system properly; noting that water boils around 100 centigrade instead of 250-plus for brake fluids and hot brakes will thus soon cause brake fade and failure! It will also start corroding the bores etc so should be replaced ASAP. I ran my 1973 GT Ducati for two days on water (front discs) - it had iron bores but seemed to survive okay.)

The lesson (ramble) ends.

Cheers, (aka the Arse-kog)
IZU069 - ISUZU means a lot to me.
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