Running faar too rich

gemininja
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Running faar too rich

Post by gemininja » Sat Jul 04, 2009 1:02 pm

hi- help!
noone on gemini forums are of much use so im hoping you will be =D
i have a gemini with an injected g200z. ECGI with a jecs computer, vane AFM, VL commy fuel pump with an adjustable FPR. g161 head. recently fully rebuilt.
i have it at the stage where it will idol ok. runs far too rich tho, fouls plugs in minutes and runs horrable when i accelerate.
if i physically hold back the AFM it runs much nicer..
i have tried adjusting the AFM.
i have tried replacing the AFM.
i have playd with bipass screws.
i have tried a different computer.
the fuel pressure is set rite.
the o2 sensor is new but wouldnt affect it this much anyway.
the temp sensor seems to be working, it wont run at all when it is unplugd.

im fast running out of ideas!

if i could get the pin locations for the ecu that would be a great help! (36 pins, 18 in one row 17 in the other, one plug. lots of jap(?) writing but i can read JECS, JR130, C10-004 000, C10-004 001) all i can find is the i-tech system.

also any ideas are much apprectated

cheers =D

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Post by IZU069 » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:18 pm

{^d8 8Jul09 - corrected G200Z to G200W}

What's your O2 sensor like? Tested it etc - that will have a big impact unless it's some O2-sensor-less JECS - ie open-loop mode etc.

If it's the system I think it is - ie, mainly analog componentry - it may not work on a G200Z - the JR130 was a G200W (DOHC - not G200Z) - its O2 compensation may have limits.
The ITEC system also included the ignition, but that shouldn't matter much.

For G-Z engines, you may be better off on the HolGem or Ozgem (etc) forums.
Last edited by IZU069 on Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by gemininja » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:12 pm

im on ozgem, gm-t, holdengemini. noone can help me.
the guy i got the engine off ran it without an o2 sensor.. a bit rich but nothing major.

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Post by madmike » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:02 am

Best contact would be Wedgenut.

It is possible that it is either the TPS or the temp sensor..

He will probably be able to lend you some known good parts to test..

Post up your location dude..
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Post by gemininja » Sun Jul 05, 2009 11:19 am

ive heard they run ok without TPS so i put that one the bottom of the list with o2 sensor.
but yea temp sensor is the most likley at the moment.
the only other thing i can think of is possably injectors. wich is a mission and really not worth just pulling off and replacing on the off chance that might help.
so if anyone has the pin locations... then i can start at the begining and work through it all

oh and im in south auckland

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Post by IZU069 » Sun Jul 05, 2009 8:19 pm

So the AirFlap is the only sensor that tells the ECU what to deliver.
The ECU delivers its programmed fuel for that air quantity at that engine speed.
It happens to be rich.

How does the ECU know it's rich without the O2 sensor?
What will make it reduce the fuel quantity?

Faulty injectors will cause it to run lean - not rich (ie, blockages etc).
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Post by madmike » Mon Jul 06, 2009 6:38 am

gemininja wrote:ive heard they run ok without TPS so i put that one the bottom of the list with o2 sensor.
but yea temp sensor is the most likley at the moment.
the only other thing i can think of is possably injectors. wich is a mission and really not worth just pulling off and replacing on the off chance that might help.
so if anyone has the pin locations... then i can start at the begining and work through it all

oh and im in south auckland
PM Wedgenut. he is an auckland boy... he will be able to help you out.
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Post by gemininja » Mon Jul 06, 2009 4:31 pm

do i detect some passive agressive comments there izu?
running without an o2 sensor will cause it to run rich yes but not this rich, as i said the last owner ran it without an o2 sensor for 6 months and didnt have any issues.
and my thought was that perhaps the injectors are wrong e.g flowing too much. or one is stuck open.

as for contacting, i shall do that now thanks

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Post by IZU069 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 5:58 pm

Your first line is as valid as if I said it to you.

So you are running the same setup as the previous owner - same exhaust, fuel, gearing, weight etc?
I assumed not, and that your driving techniques, average speeds & terrains are different. Hence the extra richness is dependent on that.
And I assumed "generally rich", not rich on just one cylinder.

But I'll leave it to you to clarify the above, and explain how your current setup compensates for a mixture that is running too rich - how does it know it is too rich, and how does it correct for it?

Once you do that, we can question why you are running richer than the previous owner. What fuel economy was he/she getting and how does that compare to yours?

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Post by gemininja » Mon Jul 06, 2009 8:29 pm

true enough. peace =D

setup diferences- im running a 161 head, an o2 sensor, a VL commodore pump, and a sard adjustable FPR. where he had the original piazza head, pump and FPR. the rest should be the same

as for the driving. he could drive his, would be the main diference. mines so bad i dont want to, and dont see the point in, trying to drive it. where he drove quite happily untill he got bored and got a turbo motor haha.

economy- what would you concider having most your fuel end up as a big black mark on the wall directly behind your exhaust =D or in your oil =S

cheers

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Post by IZU069 » Mon Jul 06, 2009 9:19 pm

Exactly.
So you require less fuel being 1600 head as apposed to 2L (and turbo?).

But you will be getting the same fuel as him because nothing is telling it otherwise.

That's why the O2 sensor is important, not trivial.
The O2 sensor is the ONLY feedback you have to say that the fuel is excessive.
Unless of course you have remapped iaw your engine, though the same compensation fr reality applies.

And please refrain from kindergarden psych in future. I usually find users of such to be insecure ignorant "know it alls" that defy logic, and "creation".
Actually that's more of a comment for the benefit for others....
I accept & take your Peace (geez I'm a sucker! :lol:) - maybe if I re-read my posts later I'll see how it can be considered passagg - but that's for later - if it matters...

Cheers.

Peter.

(PS - try to incorporate the O2 sensor & see how that works. There should be diagnostic codes available, or methods to check voltage (I've forgotten - normal is ~0.5V for stoic mixture in 0-1V range?? Above 0.5V means lean?? Oh memories. :rolleyes: !!)
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Post by gemininja » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:12 pm

an orignal idea- interesting train of thought to follow, thankyou.
its a non-turbo but i dont actually know of anyone that has run a 161 head on an efi g200. ive seen a few carbyd ones wich would just need tuneing...
i am running an o2 sensor, BUT, i didnt put it in. it was suplied and fit by a monkey that charged me 2 grand (long story) for all the work he did.

could i get the specs on what the o2 SHOULD be and be reading? so i can check and compare.

and as far as faut codes go, there is a diagnostic LED. how would i get them to show on a piazza? its a long shot that whatever plug i bridge out or plug in or whatever, was left in the loom by the last owner. but its worth a try.

and izu, contradict much?
stop being condecending and ill stop being a smartass =D

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Post by IZU069 » Wed Jul 08, 2009 7:55 pm

I was going to provide the info, but then I read the last.

What do you mean by "and izu, contradict much?".

And I'm not being condescending. Funnily enough, I'm usually accused of being a smart arse.
I don't look down on people because they don't know the answers etc - how else do people learn? I'm not the "old stereotype male"
When people call me a "smart arse" because I happen to know something they don't, well... it depends how it's intended.

But I didn't see you as being a smartarse. Far from it!
I was trying to get across to you that AFAIAC, the O2 sensor is your most important priority - certainly far from trivial.
But I may have missed something in your setup that provided the same feedback as what the 02 sensor does - hence the invite to explain.

Note to that I just found an error in a previous post - I referred to (the ECU being from) a G200Z when I meant G200W - ie twincam - a totally different beast.
Not that that accounts for the ECU being different for the G200Z in your vehicle than the same G200Z in the previous owner's - but that's why I pointed out that exhaust etc have an impact.
It wasn't meant to be condescending. Maybe I should have requested more or full details and then replied when I though the information to be adequate.

Since I amn't being helpfull and seem to have provoked for a second time, I'll leave it to the others to help you. Besides - O2 sensor info is readily available and quicker through google etc.

I will unwatch so I'll have to be PMd for attention.
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Post by gemininja » Thu Jul 09, 2009 5:19 pm

lol. atleast hes entertaining

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Post by IZU069 » Wed Jun 09, 2010 7:31 am

Almost as entertaining as the solution.

And the sale price...
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