LSD shimmed, still sucks.

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archangel62
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LSD shimmed, still sucks.

Post by archangel62 » Mon Mar 25, 2013 4:38 pm

Hey all,

So after searching half the country for an LSD, I realised my car already has one, but it was worn out. So, I ripped the banjo center out and took it down to my local reputable diff shop. The guy pulled the thing apart and attempted to shim it, but was only able to get 10thou in it and still put it back together. He pretty much explained that it's a rubbish design that's impossible to put back together with any real tension on it, and that he didn't think what he'd done would accomplish much. He didn't charge me much for it, and suggested I run a normal diff oil (non-LSD type) as the friction modifier in LSD oil would only hinder my cause.

Anyway, I'm now left with a diff that still won't lock up in the dry, but can't be spun openly by hand. This diff guy has quite a good reputation, and charged me peanuts because he wasn't happy with the result.

What now? Is there anything else that could fit inside the Aussie Piazza housing? Is our diff the same as Japan/America/Europe? Are there any other cars that shared this housing, and/or center? I'd really prefer not to lock the diff, and custom sounds pricey.

Cheers,
Eli
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car

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Post by ImpulseRocket89 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 2:29 am

The Isuzu diff was based off of the GM 7.62" design, but if that even translates into anything that could be used is a complete unknown. I always wanted to see if the GM diff could be made to work inside our housing, but I haven't gotten that far.

There are no rebuild parts for them, there are no factory replacements, and as far as I know nothing else has been found that works. Even people that have modified the factory diff by putting in different combinations of spring and clutch plates to increase the breakaway torque still say that it isn't very good.

This is why I have resigned to swapping in a different axle into the car. At this point though, I haven't reached that stage yet.

The only nice thing about the Piazza/Impulse is that for their size they actually were given a rather large axle, so fitting a GM 10 bolt or, like what I plan on doing, a Dana 44 will not create any real clearance issues. The only drawback is the fabrication side of things associated with swapping axles (also reads cost).
1988 Isuzu Impulse Turbo.
2005 Ford Crown Victoria LX

RIP 1989 Impulse Turbo, aka "Rakete"

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Post by IZU069 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:18 am

Any "Isuzu" diff (other than the Belletts).
All diffs from the 1965 Wasp through to the 1988 4ZC1 Jackaroo/Rodeo (and 4ZE1 front diff in 4WDs) are the same banjo, the only difference being the gear ratios. The Wasp/Jacks/Rodeos are 4.55 whereas passenger vehicles (Piazza) are 3.9. (Florian is different, but the banjo is the same).
(I didn't realise the GM 7.62" design dated back to the 1960s.)

Hence get any Jackaroo or Rodeo rear LSD up to & including the 4ZC1 and swap their crown and pinion with the Piazza's (open or LSD). They are all 10 bolt crowns.


Note that with Florians and Wasps as released in Australia, though their banjos are interchangeable, there are differences. Eg, Florians (4.1 ratio) and Wasp (4.55) (and LUVs etc) have an 8-bolt crown, not 10-bolt like later Jacks & Rodeos (nor 12 bolt as per 4ZE1 rears).
(FYI - hence the Florian 4.1 and Bellett 3.9 & 3.7 (or Wasp 4.55 or LUV/KB 5.6 etc) crown & pinions are interchangeable, but nothing else wrt to the Bellett.)
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Post by ImpulseRocket89 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 1:42 pm

IZU069 wrote: (I didn't realise the GM 7.62" design dated back to the 1960s.)
Maybe I am wrong on them being altered GM designs. GM had a 10 bolt way back in the 60's though, but it was the 8.2" and the 7.5/7.62" unit appeared in the early-mid 70's

Granted, any two diffs can look similar. measurements are everything. So I concede that lol.

In any case, with keeping the stock rear axle your choices are pretty much to try and hunt down the parts that really don't exist to try and change the breakaway torque, swap to a different rear axle assembly, or see if something like the GM 7.5/7.62 diff could be made to work in the carrier, but this would require shafts to be made to suit the spline count of the diff you used.

Great options huh?
1988 Isuzu Impulse Turbo.
2005 Ford Crown Victoria LX

RIP 1989 Impulse Turbo, aka "Rakete"

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Post by IZU069 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:43 pm

You have Troopers (Jackaroos) and Rodeos over there - have you given them a look?

They might have local changes as did the "Gemini" - at least over here (though the Gemini was the first GM-Isuzu vehicle). The Gemini has little Isuzu transmission other than the gearbox. Diffs are Borg Warner and Salisbury. The engine (G-Z series) is the least compatible of all - ie, G-W twincams will often bolt on to the G OHV and G-S Jap SOHC engine blocks - only the GZ bearings and conrods & pistons being interchangeable with the other G series. Oh - and valve-stem seals.

Our 4ZC1-t Piazzas (non torque-tube types) have Isuzu diffs.
I haven't yet measured the axles of Piazza and Jackroos & Rodeos to compare with my Florians [though my ideal is the later 12-bolts diffs of the 4ZE1s (and 4ZE1 gearboxes) to handle the torque of my G200W twincams, and the 4ZE1 disc rears ends would be nice (but otherwise the Piazza rear)] - otherwise I could give you some definite alternatives.
But all axle splines from 1965 up until the 4ZE1 are the same.
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Post by IZU069 » Tue Mar 26, 2013 9:48 pm

Sorry - I confused your (ImpulseRocket's) reply with Archangel's need.

Arch - they are so common I've even given some away (though not the Piazza 3.9 gears)!
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Post by Bugle » Wed Mar 27, 2013 1:05 am

I would probably just shorten a Commodore rear end and get axles shortened/redrilled. Even better if you did a Commodore front brake conversion too you could just shorten the axles and have 5x120 all around.

Would just have to make a jig for re-creating the mounting points on the replacement diff.

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Post by archangel62 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 3:41 pm

Alright, so what I'm thinking now is to examine a Jackaroo diff at the wreckers and consider suitability.

Could the centres potentially be swapped, leaving the gearsets original? Ideally I'd love to bolt a Jackaroo LSD onto the Piazza crown/pinion.

If this is vaguely possible, I'll need to measure the diameter of Jackaroo axles and count the splines, then remove the crown wheel and see if the centre can be unbolted. If so, I'd need to check the PCD of the centre, to see if it could potentially bolt to the Piazza crown. Unfortunately I've put my Piazza diff back together without measuring these things, so I'd need to either rely on group knowledge, or source a second diff to check.

The next option would be to contact Altra9 and see if they could make a one-off custom LSD centre that uses standard axles, but I'm guessing the price would be pretty high for a single item.

The last resort would be to modify another diff to suit (which would be easier than on a Gemini, since there's no TT), although I'd much prefer not to do this, since it involves messing with brakes and potentially offsets, axle splines and/or PCD, hell, possibly even a modified tailshaft...
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car

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Post by Bugle » Tue Apr 09, 2013 6:15 pm

A Jackaroo LSD isn't going to be any better than a Piazza one though.

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Post by IZU069 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:36 am

Like I said, you unbolt & remove the Piazza banjo and simply replace with the Jackaroo/Rodeo Banjo.

Only because you'd want the 3.9 instead of 4.55 is anything else needed.
Chances are the complete transfer of the pinion shaft with bearings and sleeves etc and unbolting/rebolting the crown will not require any extra shimming.
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Post by archangel62 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 1:17 pm

But by transferring the whole banjo, you'd end up with the silly ratios, hence swapping the centre between crown wheels - providing the centres can bolt swap between the gearsets!

I'm going on the assumption that there would have to be aftermarket LSDs out there for Jackaroos.... Maybe...
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car

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Post by IZU069 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:02 pm

Hmm - my apologies - I have been looking at at from my usual Wasp & Florian conversions to LSD from open their standard open diff.

The banjo is removed and refitted no matter what.

If you can simply exchange the clutches then do that.
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Post by archangel62 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:23 pm

Impending information dump for later reference (may or may not be useful, but I'm sure it'll help someone)

http://clubisuzu.proboards.com/index.cg ... thread=832

The content below is from a USA site so a couple of things to watch
- Amigo is pretty much a MU.
- Rodeo is sold in NZ as either a Wizard or 5 door Frontera.
- USA never got the diesel engines the 2.8 and 3.1 engines mentioned are chevy V6s
- Dana diffs are rare in Isuzus outside the USA We only get the Isuzu 8,10 and 12 bolt versions. Its a pitty because the range of lockers for Dana diffs is huge



WHAT AXLES DO I HAVE IN MY TRUCK?
ISUZU AXLE INFORMATION LIST

TROOPER

STOCK RATIO: 4.56:1 EXCEPT W/ WIDE TIRE OPTION 4.77:1

1985-86 4WD 2.3L 4CYL
FRONT: ISUZU IFS 8 BOLT (SOMETIMES REFERED TO AS 9 BOLT)
REAR: ISUZU 10 BOLT (3RD MEMBER, DRUM BRAKE)

1987 4WD 2.3L 4CYL
FRONT: ISUZU IFS 8 BOLT (OR)
ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: ISUZU 10 BOLT (3RD MEMBER, DRUM BRAKE)
(NOTE: SOME SPLIT YEAR -SOME END OF YEAR MODELS HAD 12 BOLTS)

1988-91 4WD GM 2.8L V-6, 2.6L 4 CYL
FRONT: ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: ISUZU 12 BOLT (3RD MEMBER, DISK BRAKE)

1992-97 4WD 3.2L 6 CYL
FRONT: ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: ISUZU 12 BOLT (3RD MEMBER, DISK BRAKE)

98-2002 4WD 3.5L 6 CYL
FRONT: MODIFIED ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: MODIFIED ISUZU 12 BOLT – LARGER OVERALL, DANA RING
GEAR ALMOST IDENTICAL TO D60 (3RD MEMBER, DISK BRAKE)


AMIGO

1989-1994 2.6L 4 CYL

FRONT: ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: ISUZU 12 BOLT (3RD MEMBER, DISK BRAKE) (4WD & 2WD XS)
REAR: 2WD NON XS MODEL – ISUZU 10 BOLT

PICK UPS

1988+
FRONT: ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: ISUZU 12 BOLT (3RD MEMBER, DISK BRAKE)

RODEO

1991-92 GM 3.1L V-6, 1993-94 4 CYL.

FRONT: ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: GM 10 BOLT (DRUM BRAKE)



RODEO/ HONDA PASSPORT

1993-4 V-6, 1995-97

FRONT: ISUZU IFS 10 BOLT
REAR: DANA 44 (DISK BREAK, USES 4.10 RING GEAR ON 3.92 DOWN
SMALL CARRIER – THICKER THAN STANDARD RING GEAR)


1998-2001 3.2L 6 CYL

FRONT: ISUZU MODIFIED IFS 10 BOLT ( LIKE TROOPER)
REAR: DANA 44 ( SLIGHTLY MODIFIED, FINNED COVER 4.10 STOCK)

Isuzu Corp 8-bolt (front)
model year(s) 81-87 Pickups and Troopers
(87 being transition year to 10-bolt)
Some Pickups up to 95

configuration IFS
axle shaft diameter
spline count
ring gear 7.5"?
pinion
factory gear ratios
factory differentials
notes used a weaker hub design (fewer splines) than its replacement, the 10-bolt.



Isuzu Corp 10-bolt (front)
model year(s) 88+ Trooper, Rodeo, Amigo, Vehicross, Axiom
configuration IFS
axle shaft diameter
spline count 17-spline
ring gear 7.62"?
Reverse cut
Thinner ring gear than 10-bolt rear

pinion Shares same pinion bearings with 10-bolt rear
factory gear ratios 4.10 - Rodeo
4.30 - Rodeo
4.56 - Trooper
4.77 - '89 Trooper RS, '90 and '98 4x4 Amigo w/ 2.2L
aftermarket gear ratios 5.38 - Tera
factory differentials Shares same carrier and carrier bearings with 10-bolt rear

aftermarket differentials Auburn LSD
Aussie Locker - limited, exclusive with Independent4x.com
PowerTrax LockRight (from 10-bolt rear application) - discontinued
ARB (RD94) *see notes below

notes Variation exists for first half of ‘98
The 10 bolt from 1/98- 5/98 is non standard in design (DANA) and can not be used with an ARB locker, models produced from 6/98 on also had 4.77's an are the standard garden variety that will take an air locker - Swordy
The VehiCROSS' front suspension is the 1998+ Trooper's - Smiley




Isuzu Corp 10-bolt (rear)
model year(s) 81-87 Pickups and Troopers (87 being transition year to 10-bolt)
some Pickups up to 95
88-95 2wd regular cab Pup
Pickups with 2.3L and VIN starting JAA
93 2wd Amigo

width 2” narrower than '88 12-bolt rear

configuration leaf - common
coil - rear drive turbo Impulse

axle tube diameter
axle tube thickness
axle shaft diameter 1.50” shafts, neck down to 1.1” at splines
spline count 17-spline
ring gear Standard cut gears
Thicker ring gear than 10-bolt front

pinion shares same pinion bearings as 10-bolt front
brakes Drum

factory gear ratios 3.90 - Impulse
4.10 - 86-87 Turbo Diesel, 2wd regular cab Pup
4.56 - 2.3L
aftermarket gear ratios none
factory differentials open - common
LSD from rear drive turbo Impulse, could be used in 10-bolt front
shares same carrier and carrier bearings as 10-bolt front

aftermarket differentials PowerTrax LockRight - discontinued
notes 3rd member's are not interchangeable with 10-bolt front.
The LockRight #3111 had spacer blocks to go between the ends of the axles and the cross shaft. #3110 is identical, but without the spacer blocks. This locker was orginally designed for rear application, but was found to also work in the front.



Isuzu Corp 12-bolt (rear)
1st generation 2nd generation 3rd generation
model year(s) 89-94 4wd Amigo
88-91 Troopers
88-95 2wd Spacecab Pup
All 2.6L Pickups 92-97 Trooper
??-?? VX
98+ Trooper
width 58” wms to wms
(some reports of 56")
61” or 63” wms to wms
(w/ fender flares = 63") 63" wms to wms
configuration leaf coil coil
axle tube diameter 3" 3.5"
axle tube thickness
axle shaft diameter 1.32" 1.50"
spline count 26-spline 23-spline
ring gear 8.66"
(comparable to 8.5" diameter Dana44, but aprox 1/2" thicker) 9.61" Spicer-produced
(comparable to 9.75" diameter Dana60)
pinion pinion shaft larger in comparison over Dana44
brakes disc

disc - larger than 1st gen
integrated drum e-brake
disc
ABS rear ABS only - tone ring pressed onto the carrier
-or-
4 wheel ABS - sensors at the tubes
4 wheel ABS - sensors at the tubes
factory gear ratios 4.56 - common
4.77 - rare. found in '89 Trooper RS and select models with "SL2" option code. (wide tire package + snowflake wheels)
4.10 - 88-89 2wd Pickup ('GT5'), Amigo (aluminum wheels)
4.30 - Pickup ('S7C'), Amigo (steel wheels)
4.30, 4.56
aftermarket gear ratios 5.38 - Tera 5.38 - Iceland
factory differentials open, clutch-plate LSD open, clutch-plate LSD (std.)
aftermarket differentials ARB (RD44) ARB (RD85)
notes Sept 97 - 98: unidentified changes that prevent installation of ARB.
94 Amigo - 1st gen axle that used 2nd brakes
The VehiCROSS' REAR is from the earlier 1996-97 Trooper - Smiley


Isuzu/Dana Model 44 (rear)
1st generation 2nd generation
model year(s) 93-97 Rodeo
(with the 3.2L Isuzu engine) 98+ Rodeo, Amigo, Rodeo Sport
width 59.75 wms to wms 63” wms to wms

configuration leaf coil
axle tube diameter
axle tube thickness
axle shaft diameter
spline count 30-spline 30-spline
ring gear standard THICK D44 ring gear
pinion standard D44 pinion Larger diameter pinion shaft requiring a different ID on the pinion bearing... or a different bearing.
brakes 6cyl - disc
4cyl - drum
4x4 - disc
4x2 - drum

ABS Single ABS sensor on pumpkin or two in the tubes. ABS tone ring on carrier

factory gear ratios 4.10 - 15" standard wheels
4.30 - 16" optional wheels
4.56 - 4cyl
4x2 : 3.73 (98-99), 4.10, 4.30, 4.56, 4.78
4x4 : 4.10 (98-03), 4.30

aftermarket gear ratios any commonly available D44 ratio
factory differentials THICK ring gear on a LOW (3.73-) carrier
G80 option code - LSD 98 (possibly 99) LSD was optional. 00+ all had mandatory LSD. G80 option code does not apply to 2nd gen.


aftermarket differentials LockRight 2410 - open carrier No-Slip - Tracloc carrier
notes A few have reported needing to use one of the OEM pinion bearings to set up the pinion due to the ID of the housing finned aluminum diff cover.
Without some "juggling" of bearings or machine work, the 98+ gears would not "drop" right into the 93-97 housing, or any other D44 housing using standard gears.


GM Corp 10-bolt (rear)
not to be confused with the Isuzu Corp 10-bolt

model year(s) 91-93 Rodeo V6 (must be coupled with 3.1L GM engine)
Early US built Pickups with 2.3L and VIN starting 4S1 or 4SA

width
configuration leaf
axle tube diameter
axle tube thickness
axle shaft diameter
spline count 28-spline?
ring gear
pinion
brakes drum
factory gear ratios 4.30
4.56

aftermarket gear ratios
factory differentials open, LSD
aftermarket differentials
notes GM 10-bolt is a c-clip style axle... often undesirablable next to flange retained style such as Dana44

93-95:
drum brakes (4 cyl), 4.56 ratio (41/9 teeth, HC6)
drum brakes (4 cyl), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
drum brakes (4 cyl), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)
disc brakes (6 cyl), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
disc brakes (6 cyl), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)

96-97:
drum brakes (4 cyl), (4.56 ratio, 41/9 teeth, HC6)
disc brakes (6 cyl), (4.30 ratio, 43/10 teeth, S7C), 3 sensor ABS (sensor in pumpkin)
disc brakes (6 cyl), (4.30 ratio, 43/10 teeth, S7C), 4 sensor ABS (sensors in axle tubes)

98-99:
4x2 (drum brakes), 4.56 ratio (41/9 teeth, HC6)
4x2 (drum brakes), 3.73 ratio (41/11 teeth, 6NW)
4x2 (drum brakes), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
4x2 (drum brakes), 4.78 ratio (43/9 teeth, S2J)
4x2 (drum brakes), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)
4x4 (disc brakes), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
4x4 (disc brakes), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)

2000:
4x2 (drum brakes), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
4x2 (drum brakes), 4.78 ratio (43/9 teeth, S2J)
4x2 (drum brakes), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)
4x4 (disc brakes), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
4x4 (disc brakes), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)

2001-2003:
(2 Dr Sport & 4 Dr), 4x2 (drum brakes), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
(2 Dr Sport & 4 Dr), 4x2 (drum brakes), 4.78 ratio (43/9 teeth, S2J)
(2 Dr Sport & 4 Dr), 4x2 (drum brakes), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)
(2 Dr Sport & 4 Dr), 4x4 (disc brakes), 4.10 ratio (41/10 teeth, GT5)
(2 Dr Sport & 4 Dr), 4x4 (disc brakes), 4.30 ratio (43/10 teeth, S7C)

2004:
(4 Dr), 4x2 (drum brakes), (4.30 ratio, 43/10 teeth, S7C)
(4 Dr), 4x4 (disc brakes), (4.30 ratio, 43/10 teeth, S7C)
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car

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Post by wedgenut » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:28 pm

UK Piazzas and Aus YB have the same diff, forget Japan the JDM cars predominantly have the salisbury diff and they have a different crown wheel so can't be grafted in and very few had LSD anyway. The good news is there is a solution, the bad news is can you afford it? I couldn't.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Quaife-Isuzu- ... 1c2010dfa0
So many cars, so little cash

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Post by eyecon » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:16 pm

I'm almost certain the oz spec banjo diffs use 17splines, making the quaife centre unsuitable. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

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