LSD shimmed, still sucks.

IZU069
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Post by IZU069 »

All Jack & Rodeos I have seen here are the Jap Isuzu banjo diffs.

The only exceptions should be special imports (non-GMH Piazza's etc).
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Post by Piazza_man »

Well that sucks, although I did read elsewhere that jeeps run the Dana 44. I hope Rbob can step in on this Izu069
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Post by ImpulseRocket89 »

Well, if you are dead set on doing an axle swap vs. trying to find a way to build the factory one, there are plenty of other great options out there besides the Dana 44 you could go with. Toyota 8 1/2", for example, should be really easy to find. Nissan, GM, Ford, etc.

To be honest, the Axle swap in some regards is a bit extreme. I saw it as a better alternative to trying to have a custom diff made, or having my factory one somehow rebuilt and improved on with custom spring plates and clutches. Somewhere out there I am sure somebody would be willing to take on that kind of work. The cost is the big unknown
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Post by Piazza_man »

I should actually check what was done to my fully rebuilt original Impulse diff. I know the boys in the work shop have a hard time pushing the car around because the diff is so tight.
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Post by IZU069 »

And update to 4ZE1 axle splinage....

26 splines at ~33mm dia (33.6mmOD). That was on a 1991 4ZE1 Jackaroo.


And recently, from RodeoBob....
The later Rodeo (as in TF size) diff is weak as piss (for its size) and especially the LSD as it was only 2 pinion as opposed to the 4 pinion open diff. Stick to 205 or smaller tyre and an earlier diff will do fine.
If you wanted a stronger diff the only one you would use would be a Hilux/Toyota diff.
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Post by Piazza_man »

Thanks mate. That's handy to know.
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Post by archangel62 »

Some progress at my end - Elky's selling me another centre which he's sure is really tight. I'll slap that in, and if it's not tight enough for my liking, I'll have my current centre looked at by some other places, and see if they can either modify it to shim up tighter, or make up a replacement item :D
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
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Post by IZU069 »

I presume your clutch plates etc are ok and in spec, or new?
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Post by archangel62 »

Yeah, the guy who inspected my diff said there's surprisingly little wear on the clutch plates, and that the whole thing's in really good condition. I'm guessing the clutch is good because it wasn't doing anything.. lol
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Post by archangel62 »

Could this be the simple solution to a complex problem?

I bought an LSD from Elky which was in an auto Piazza, strangely enough, and he affirmed worked. Today I finally dig it up and clean it, and it turns out it's a 4.55:1 ratio. 41 to 9. A quick search suggests this is most likely an early 80s Jackaroo diff centre in a Piazza housing, tried and tested! Hell, there's a good chance the whole banjo assembly was swapped.

But 4.55 is a shitey ratio. So the next test will be whether the centre can swap onto the Piazza 3.909 gearset. At a glance it looks like it will, but I haven't removed my Piazza diff yet. I'm guessing it will need to be re-shimmed afterwards, since the centre carries the bearings? Anyone shed any light here?
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Post by wedgenut »

Yep you will need to do a set up if you change out your ring gear on to a new centre. At least you don't have to worry about pinion depth set up as it isn't being removed. A couple of hours, a few cold ones, a bottle of marking blue and some feeler gauges will get you there. The banjo diff head is an easier set up than the Salisbury style so you shouldn't have too much trouble. Use new bearings though, they are cheap insurance to do a decent job of it.
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Post by IZU069 »

All Florian, Wasp, LUV, Rodeo, Shuttle, Jackaroo banjos UNTIL the 4ZE1 are interchangeable with banjo-removable Piazza diffs (ie, NOT Gemini BW & Salisbury types).
The differences are the ratios with commercials & 4WD (Wasp, LUV, Rodeo, Jackaroos) generally being 4.55:1 and passenger (Piazza) 3.9:1.
Florians were originally 4.1:1 but they were 8 bolt as were Wasps... (where bolts is crownwheel bolts - NOT the 10-bolt housing.)

But modern(ish) diffs are all 10-bolt crowns. (4ZE1 use 12-bolt.)
Hence any 1980s vintage diff banjo should have interchangeable crown & pinion.
Hence - as I've written before & elsewhere - a 3.9 LSD solution is a 1980's (non-4ZE1) Jackaroo or Rodeo LSD with the Piazza crown & pinion. (Apparently all Rodeos until ~1984 were LSD - if I recall RodeoBob's info.)

Be aware of Wasp & Florian owners that want 3.9 LSDs! (Shit man, even though my Wasp only has a G161-OHV engine & 5-speed gearbox; my LSD's 4.55 is way to high!)
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Post by IZU069 »

PS - to paraphrase, someone stuck a st'd Rodeo or Jackaroo LSD into you Piazza.
You should be able to "merely" swap the crown & pinion gears.

Note that some front prop-shat flanges may differ in length (Wasp compared to others?) but all should be interchangeable - same splines, bearings, nuts - and (generally?) same yoke size.
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

As always, thanks for the responses guys.

Sounds like having the diff set up again is the go. 3.9 gearsets are too rare to waste with poor settings! I'm not sure I can afford new bearings etc right now, so I might have to put up with the old pegleg pirate for a little longer...

I'm chuffed to hear that the centres will swap. I know it was discussed previously, but I got the impression there was still doubt. At a glance, the centre seems to have room for a *slightly* smaller crown wheel, although my best guess is that the 3.9 would actually be larger - I'm guessing a 43:11 gearset versus the higher ratio 41:9.

Now assuming this LSD works, it shouldn't be hard for other Piazzas to get decent centres. My diff bloke had trouble shimming the LSD on my current diff, so it'll be interesting to see if this is the same style centre. The Piazza manual mentions several custom tools to assemble the LSD, so if they are the same unit, perhaps this bodes will for being able to source said tools through my friend at an Isuzu dealer. Or, if not, perhaps this opens the door for it to actually be shimmed tighter. Alternatively, perhaps there are aftermarket items out there for the 'Roo that would do a better job. It all sounds pretty good.
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Post by IZU069 »

The sizes are exactly the same - they do not vary as a function of ratio, that's the function of pitch etc.
[Hence why you can''t just swap crowns & pinions (or gearbox gears) willy-nilly, though diff crown and pinions are matched as a pair during manufacture and must be kept as a pair... Or at least they were in our olde days; I'm not sure if that still applies.]

And not that I've done our banjo-type interchanges (except Jackaroo/Rodeo LSD banjo into Wasp) but when I did Bellett & Florian 4.1 & 3.9 (or 3.7 - whatever) interchanges, I simply replaced the crown, and the pinion was refitted with whatever shims it (the donor pinion) came with. I should have blued them as a check, but they all outlasted whatever vehicle was involved.
Of course if a crown had a different thickness, or a housing "front" a different offset, or pinion shaft a different profile, then either or both would need shimming.

As for a banjo swap, the beauty is that no shimming is involved because that's inherent with the banjo. But swapping a banjo's crown & pinion has the same "what if either varies" concern (ie, crown thickness or pinion profile) and hence shimming requirements.


Trivially - and not that it's an issue in this forum - whilst the Florian had the Piazza & hence Wasp/LUV/KB/Rodeo/Jackaroo banjo (ignoring the latter ratios), the Bellett was not a banjo. So although original 8-bolt Florian & Bellett crowns were interchangeable (with their pinions), that does not mean that the Piazza etc banjos (with 10-bolt crowns) interchange with Belletts, nor that Belletts & Jackaroo etc gears are interchangeable.
I clarify/state that in case anyone here is absent enough to claim compatibility. (Of course that's not because I need to hang shit on certain Bellett.net forummers! It's merely another opportunity.)
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