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[SOLVED] HELP! Windshield washer function not working.

 
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DMZ
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2015 4:12 am    Post subject: [SOLVED] HELP! Windshield washer function not working. Reply with quote

Some of you will have seen the progress of my car the past year and half by various means, and shall indeed have some tales to tell here, but the eve of the MOT, I've hit a small but significant problem.

The windscreen washer function isn't working. The wipers do work on all speeds etc. But when the button is pressed, not a peep. No relay clicking, no wiper motor going, no washer pump. Swapped relays off the other car whose washer button incites motion (it's part dismantled but everything turns when the button is pressed). Swapped a few washer motors over, but since it's not turning the wiper motor either, seems not to be a washer pump power issue. Checked the contact thing under the scuttle panels that cruds up, this one is immaculate. It's acting as if it's the switch that is faulty. We're not electronics gurus. The only thing I can think of is swapping the left pod from the working car (frustrating steering wheel/binnacle removal?) to check the switch out, unless there is an easier way. Other than/after that, completely stuck and not sure where to go with it. Any ideas??!


Last edited by DMZ on Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:37 am; edited 1 time in total
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IZU069
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 12:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Normally washers are simple, eg a +12V connected motor with push-button switch to chassis (GND, earth, 0V).(Additional washer triggers or extension circuits are simply paralleled to the 0V pb switch.) And then there's the Piazza...


Firstly though, I am working from memory and the Almighty piazzamanual.pdf. I have little memory of actual physical wiring and access though piazzamanual.pdf does provide good connector and location detail.
Also all our Piazza's are the 4ZC1-t types with auto-speed wipers - hence the huge amp or EMS looking box on the engine bay's RHS. [I thought all Piazzas had that but after recently seeing a 1983 G200Z Piazza import I realised some have typical manual speed wipers... as well as IMO pathetic mechanical distributors (why don't all have the 1980 G200W Piazza's all-electronic optical dizzy??!!!)]
Other Piazzas might still have the wiper-arm position cutout switch in which case they'd also have +12V switching for the washer motor, and probably similar washer-wiper interactive circuits.


Although the Piazza's washer motor is +12V aka hot switched, it does have a 0V interrupt switch to stop washing during certain wiper arm positions. The switch is part of the wiper motor or arm - a black wire from the washermotor to the switch with the switch being grounded through the chassis.

The +12V side of the washer is controlled directly from the cluster switch which gets +12V through the 15A Front Wiper Fuse (#15) and outputs +12V via an LB (bLue-Black) wire to the washer motor.
The cluster's washer switch also causes the wipers to wipe for a sweep of few.

A first test could be pressing the washer switch to see if the wipers do their sweep (with IGN on of course!).
If the wipers then sweep, the cluster switch and circuitry is fine.

The testing (order) after that depends on accessibility & convenience and tools. (Note that I'm assuming the wipers work hence fuse #15and associated wiring is ok.)
I'll usually test the motor since it's usually easy - a simple 2-pin spade motor connector in an accessible location. Connect +12V and 0V direct to the motor connector/terminals to confirm it works.

If the motor works, whilst disconnected, I'd use a DMM (continuity mode, else 20V with DMM+ to battery +12V) to confirm the position switch is closing, but that may need a full wiper sweep to close or ensure full/proper operation.
[ As I recall, the position switch is open (washer turned OFF) when the washer spray is after the wiper blade - ie, off for half a sweep, namely off when sweeping right to left in Aussie & Pom & Jap & other RHD Piazzas. {Yes, we drive on the right side. The right side is the wrong side and the left side is the right side. The right side is the wrong side. The Japs drive on the left - I rest my case!} ]
I'd expect the washer to work in the wiper's normally parked position (namely to the left in RHD models).

Otherwise I'd bypass the position switch - ie, connect motor -ve/black direct to chassis or battery- - and see if that works.


FYI - There's the usual disconnect & reconnect of all involved connections. That - along with the "standard practice" (LOL!) of rotating all fuses of identical type & rating - IMO solves over 90% of all electrical faults - especially intermittents. The same can be done with relays - especially on non-Euro vehicles - since many relays are the same although the Piazza may use older SPST JIDEC etc relays that have a dummy pin in place of the unused SPDT terminal or a relay base with a filled unused SPDT terminal thereby preventing the use of its SPDT equivalent. Newer types allow interchangeability - ie, no SPST relays have incompatible dummy pins and all SPST bases accept SPDT relays (even if the extra terminal is not wired). Hence why only SPDT relays need be purchased for mini-DIN (Bosch etc cube types) & micro-DIN and modern Isuzu vehicles etc relays and why they easily be rotated & interchanged (assuming SPST on-off relays are not used in place of SPDT changeover relays).
For unique relays, merely disconnect & reconnect - unless that is likely to damage the relay or wiring.


If the washer motor works and the wipers sweep upon washer activation (even if the washers don't) it's a Wiper Control Box (Wiper Controller) problem UNLESS it's some other wiring problem.
If the wipers don't sweep for a wash, it's a LH Satellite Switch (cluster) problem.


I haven't detailed wiring checks. That should go without saying though some of the above checks wil confirm that wiring is ok.
But whether to trace and check all wiring (with DMM or test lights) versus sparts substitution (cluster assembly; wiper control box, washer motor) depends on the availability of such spares and relative convenience.
Of course if a wiring fault causes things to blow then you need to check the wiring, but that is rare. Even if a Jap vehicle has an unintended short to GND, it's more likely that a fuse will blow. However modern electronic control circuits may not blow fuses and may blow themselves or interconnected circuits instead.
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eyecon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What he said.
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IZU069
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You lazy poo. Say it yourself!

Jest kidding. I'm having a go at my own (allegedly) verbose replies though I do acknowledge my usual universal information that attempts to educate or resolve related issues.
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eyecon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 9:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Haha, I always defer to your better judgement in these matters. prayer
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IZU069
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 26, 2015 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Better judgement? Now that is showing poor judgement! (LOL - don't you miss the old days when we used to fling ... er, stuff.. at each other? Oh hang on, the flinging stopped and then YOU came along and rewoke contributions.)

Alas "better...". The number of times I see stuff - like yours - that blows me away.
And I'm wary that here I'm writing about a car I no longer remember... (I've never had one on the road either...) I usually reply with mere general knowledge stuff. (Granted, my genKnow may seem remarkable to some.)

At least this is a sensible forum. I'm not dealing with dickheads that think GT Type-R Belletts have PR-91W chassis numbers or that think fuel pumps controlled by oil pressure switches makes any sense or that +12V battery isolation... or ammeters... or modifications to AFM or MAP sensor signals... (How many years - or $dollar$ - have such people wasted? Meanwhile cheapies like me continue with reliable performance and mind blowing engine outputs for outlays that rarely exceed a handful of dollars.)


But enough of my bragging. You did that for me.

BTW - my License will soon return from its holiday. My replacement Jackaroo however... Ah well, I might soon get an electric scooter or bike on the road - probably with my own driver circuit with regenerative braking (ie, battery recharging) else at least control box bypassing for full-power...
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DMZ
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 2:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Very useful information probably not just for me but for others too, thanks all - issue resolved as being a faulty switch/some fault with the pod. Swapped the one off my 'spares' car (which will be restored but is slowly being pillaged...). MOT pass!
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eyecon
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 6:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thumbright
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IZU069
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 27, 2015 7:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Great to hear!
Or should I say I was right? LOL! Nah - I just covered (almost) all bases,

And yo know to keep the old pod? Anything can be repaired - or butchered for spares - though maybe one day someone will want blank pods for Phase 4 dash & EMS modifications.


Incidentally, even though the Piazza is somewhat nightmarish re electrics, I found it was relatively modular (multiple separate systems) and relatively easy to break down and check or analyse.
Of course that is with the typical Jap electrical info in its piazzamanual.pdf etc whose 100+ pages is IMO great documentation - eg, its fold out wiring diagrams superbly show circuit and wiring & connector detail. They even reproduce the key elements as required - eg, inclusion of "Power Source" details on the LHS of each diagram where relevant. (Though I miss single page Bellett & Florian electrics, I'd had to think how Gregories or others would handle Piazza electrics!)
Of course the Piazza is essentially no different to modern vehicles. It's just that it has bigger & older components, and a few extras that other vehicles don't have.


But problem solved. And one that worked using sparts substitution - a blessing for any vehicle repairer. (Not like a guy I've recently been dealing with who has bought about 5 ignition hall sensors (over $130 each?) and still no closer to solving his problem. And yes, it ain't Jap. (It's a VAG - ha ha!))
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