Coil/ignitor wiring for Microtech conversion

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Post by IZU069 »

I forgot - batteries... (from one of the world's experts)

Wet/flooded batteries must be recharged every so often. New batts may tolerate 6 month recharges though I suggest 3 months.

After sitting or any flattening they need desulfation. This means charging at 14.4V for soft sulfates (up to about a week old) and possibly more - aka an equalisation charge.
Hard sulfates may likewise be dislodged but usually require high current (typically >20A for car batteries) or mechanic methods.


I suggest an Aldi battery charge next time they're available. The were $25 but last time were $30. They are a modern switched-mode "intelligent" type charger of 4A (3800mA) capacity that can do 6V & 12V bike & car batteries.
They are the equivalent of other chargers costing typically $75 and above.
Though there are better chargers with more cycles etc, IMO for most people the Aldi unit is quire sufficient. IMO their only drawback is the lack of memory - ie, after AC cycling the charger does not revert to its former operation state.
But the Aldi will drop to float charging (as all good chargers should do) and hence can be left connected permanently.

You cannot leave "cheap" chargers connected permanently. They can increase battery voltage above 14.4V which will eventually destroy the battery, and maybe property to boot!
I had an old 1A plugpack trickle charger that I might sometimes "permanently" connect through a 7 day timer set for ~1 hours of charging ONCE per 7 days.


Remember too that voltage does NOT indicate the health of a battery - merely its state of charge - aka SOC or percentage of full capacity.
My last retired 8 year old batteries seemed fine (12.7V etc) until capacity tested; they probably had about 1/10th - 1/20th of their rated capacity - ie, 4AH or 2AH instead of ~40AH. Alas with my battery isolator and reduction startermotor (and RG ignition) I was able to screw them for juice for an extra 2 years...


Finally, forget old 13.8V alternator settings. That was dumped for 14.2V or a max of 14.4V decades ago.
Some are now setting higher voltages depending on the battery - eg, 14.5V, or 14.8V for AGM batteries etc.
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Post by archangel62 »

I might try disconnecting the old ECU once I get the car back, although I'm mostly going for a "minimal modification" type setup, even if I never intend on going back to factory gear. I mentioned the oil light to Anthony (Cece), the guy who runs the dyno place. He said he'll monitor it, and he knows what he's doing :D I'm guessing it might just be a dud switch, I've had those before, and after consulting the wiring diagram I'm sure I have the right wire (YG off the top of my head) to the oil pressure switch. I noticed there's a "timer" unit in close vicinity in the wiring diagram (instrument cluster wiring) which could explain the flashing, though it didn't really look connected to the oil light in the diagram. Interestingly, my car also has a big metal cylinder mounted near the oil filter - just a bit smaller than a tennis ball - with a single wire coming out of it, but I can't find anything to connect to it. I looked on Lachlan's Piazza and it doesn't have one. Weird. Maybe it's for an oil pressure gauge that's no longer present.

I do need a decent battery charger, and preferably one I can leave on a trickle charge as you say. Interesting about alternator settings, I might have to see about adjusting that if possible on some of my cars. The Geminis mostly run the external module of the slightly newer variety marked "temp compensated adjustable" so hopefully I can just reset them. Although it might accentuate the "lights dim on idle" symptom, which you can't really band-aid with a smaller pulley on a high revving engine. Oh well. Having said that, I've been tempted to upgrade to internal module Bosch/similar on most of my cars anyway.

I've always wondered if it's possible to open up a battery and physically clean it to make it functional again. I know, music good, battery acid bad, but I'm sure there's a way, and I'm sick of buying a new bloody battery every 2 years - for each functional car. Thankfully (???) not many of my cars are deemed functional, but in a fleet of 9 (including the girlfriend's 2) that's far too many.

Anyway. Piazza stuff. I'm really excited to get this thing on the road with some serious power, although it's going to handle like a dog's breakfast until I sort out a few things. Swapping the LSDs is a very high priority, but I also need to sort out some lower, tougher front springs to match the rears, and some Koni rear shocks to match the fronts. Bilstein would be good, but I like being able to adjust them. The Koni distributor I tried to use down here were useless, so I'll try another one...

I'm thinking a cut Falcon front spring may suit the front end - the EA/EB fronts are about 120mmm outer diameter, Piazza are 116mm, or the AU springs taper from 100mm OD to 117mm OD along their length. I'd hazard a guess that I'd be cutting off about a third of the spring, although we'll see. I say this because it's now all but impossible to get new aftermarket springs for the Piazza in Aus (I've tried) and after making a few calls about custom springs, it seems there's a hell of a lot of guesswork involved for something that costs $450/pair. I don't believe in the outright taboo towards cut springs, I just think they need to be done right. Being that the Piazza front end is going to remain captive with the twin control arm setup, and off the top of my head, there are recesses to seat the springs, I have no qualms about it. The heating via grinding is one thing, but if it's only heated on the cut edge, I can't see it causing any serious damage, and even in a complete failure scenario for the Piazza front end, the car hits bump stops and the driver can pull over. And if I get something I'm happy with, I can always use it as a template for an aftermarket spring if I want.
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Post by Piazza_man »

Funny you should talk about EA Falcon springs. My first Piazza used cut-down heavy duty lowered EA springs and it felt really good in the handling department, so I know it works. Springs were Selby back then but I'm sure there are other suppliers out there. Don't ask me how many coils were lopped off because I don't know, but I don't think it was much at all considering they were already lowered. Sorry bud.
Last edited by Piazza_man on Tue Jun 03, 2014 2:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by IZU069 »

When I said mechanically I didn't mean physically opening a battery up (when possible that's usually not worth it anyhow...). I meant by vibration etc, or "shock" as experienced using high current.

The old Gem regs like Belletts etc can be adjusted up - just bend whichever tang.
But seriously, they should all be exchanged for newer internal fan & internal regulator alternators.
Though the Nissan N12 45A is a direct bolt in, I'd suggest the N13's 75A with a 6mm shim (and maybe longer rear bolt), or any of the equivalent sized alternators from other vehicles. (My Wasp has been running a ~90A Subaru alternator since I got bogged years ago.)

In all cases I suggest NOT using Bosch alternators. Both the N12 & N13 have Hitachi versions (though maybe most are Bosch).
Jap alternators will not blow after jump starts or when driving with a bad battery.
And the Jap alternators use spade connectors which is great if you don't have the original connector.

Wiring is easy - extend the L terminal to a male spade to plug into the OEM regulator's harness socket's white/red wire, and run a new wire from the S terminal to the +12V battery terminal (can use very thin wire so fusing isn't needed).

But shit man, I've posted that info so many times....


The dimming is due to the slower nature of the mechanical regulators as well as the ground path to external regulators. (No, pulleys have no effect. And you really want a larger pulley for high reving engines....)


The oil pressure "can" will be the oil pressure sender.
I don't recall the oil light circuitry either - ie, wrt timers & resets etc. (I can well imagine a rest only after an IGN +12V cycle.)
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Post by archangel62 »

Good to hear an endorsement for the Falcon springs. I've done some homework and they sound good. I believe Ausdel Piazza front springs to be around 4kg/mm, HBL are 7kg/mm. Standard Falcon un-cut springs are 5.71kg/mm, Falcon King Springs being 6.88kg/mm. I have no idea how much will need to be cut off as yet, but I'm thinking I'll start with standard Falcon springs. I'm aiming for somewhere around 6.5 to 7kg/mm, and a vertical clearance from tyre to guard of maybe 10mm. Combined with Koni Yellows, that should keep it tight enough to behave, without being so tight as to induce understeer.

Batteries - so by the sounds of things, charging a battery on a running, driving car is one of the best ways to fix it? That's the highest amperage I could imagine putting through it. As for the alternator info - cheers for the brush-up, I've got it all saved away for future reference anyway, but I forget these things until I delve into the archive - heh. My drift car is running the Bosch - possibly N12, but I can't remember (I needed a quick solution and it was all the wrecking yard had) and I find it a lot better than standard, although a steady dim charge light is its normal behavior (contrary to this, it charges the battery just fine). Future conversions will definitely be aimed at Japanese alternators.

Fuel... So I'm bringing this up again. I wanted to get the car tuned on 91RON, because it will need to do country miles where 98 might not be available, and I would have thought that 8:1 CR is low enough to support it. However the tuner has mentioned that he'd really prefer to do it on 98, because 91 doesn't allow for much timing advance which in turn costs a lot of power. I'm not quite sure how to proceed here. The other factor is the pricing element - saving 15 cents per litre means I'm more likely to drive this every day, which is what I want - I have too many cars to tuck them away as "toys" and never touch them. I "only" want 180rwkw, so I pretty much said that if he thinks he can make that on 91RON, do it, but if he can't, then just go ahead and go 98. I suppose when I'm in the country I'll just have to use octane booster and/or drive it carefully...
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Post by IZU069 »

My Dog! Someone that recognises the (subtle but) obvious - AND lives in Australia!! (And lives so close to Redarc!!)
Yes - alternator charging is usually the best since it can push HEAPS of Amps.
My 38AH AGM used to absorb ~45A after startup which is 5x to 10x its conventional "max charge current" allowance. And equivalent wet cell would probably take about half that - I haven't measured the initial charge current on my new wet battery (about 12 months old?).
Ironically AGMs should not be subject to high recharge or discharge currents, but mine were Yuasa UPS AGMs and pretty darn rugged. (They were 13 years old at the time of that measurement.)

Of course the Amperage is subject to alternator capacity and voltage, and the voltage & internal resistance of the battery. That resistance increases as a battery is discharged.
But it takes a BIG and hence usually expensive charger to be able to supply - or push - 20A into a battery. ("Push" meaning to increase voltage to whatever is required... up to a point.)


The dim charge light is typical in Geminis and similar wired vehicles. There are a few solutions but the easiest is probably 1 or 2 1N400x diodes in series with the charge light to get a 0.6 - 1.4V voltage drop.
[ As I recall, the dim charge light is caused by a difference of ~1.5V between the IGN +12V and the regulator's +12V L (chargeLight) output when charging. ]
FYI - The other L-circuit tested lamps like master alarm & brake fault (and low fuel etc if fitted) are also dimly lit but they have a diode between them and the L output and hence are ~0.6V dimmer than the charge light.



As to octane...
Put it this way, several mates have mentioned how Bellettians etc on Bellett.net use 95 octane. For the fuck of me I cannot figure why - excluding timing advance they get no extra power.
I used to occasionally use 98RON in the Wasp etc and advance the timing to take advantage of it, but I stopped after an episode of really bad running MANY years ago. Since then I have been 91RON consistently (or 92).
And obviously no additives since my engine is NOT the early cast iron head type. (Isuzu engines have been "lead free" since the mid to late 1960s.)

If you like paying the extra money for the bit of extra performance, go for it. But from what I saw the other day, even 95RON costs nearly 10c/L (8%) more than 91/92RON. I certainly hope those people have their RG ignitions before resorting to the expense of 95 or 98RON!
And for that price and increase in power, I'd rather fit a fan or hair drier to the air filter!

For those that use higher RON or add additives because they think their engines need it (valves etc), I think they are almost as silly as those that have their heads rebuilt BEFORE any indication of trouble.
It's cheaper rebuilding than adding additives.
And you rebuild once problems show - NOT in case problems may occur.
I wonder how many preventative rebuilders or additive adders would then think like me.. "Hey man, 250,000 km and the valves are still ok...".
Of course that's BellNet - somewhat behind the times with info, and like many Aussie car/electrical forums, so full of false info. (I know some things like losing steering after shearing the collapsible column's pin is a joke, but people that don't know don't get it and take it seriously!)


If it were my Piazza I'd be tuning on the fuel I expect to run - namely 91RON.
If I fill with 95 or 98 or 115 I'd merely advance the ignition (distributor).
(And I'd fit a knock indicator..)


Oh & BTW - you may often read how adding a big audio cap (which is essentially useless depending on what you are trying to do) or adding another or bigger battery causes extra strain on the electrical system - ie alternator.
In fact the opposite is true, and that should be obvious with a bit of thinking.
I find the term "strain" amusing anyhow... An alternator merely supplies what it can. Overload-wise they SHOULD be self limiting and self protecting. (Bosch does not fit that behaviour, nor do some GM and related alternators.)
You'll often read how the Big-3 etc - ie, improving earths/grounds and distribution - REDUCES the strain on alternators (or the system). So by having the alternator supply MORE current means LESS "strain'? Interesting eh?

Woops - I entered forbidden territories in the above. I know better than to discuss vehicle electrics on Australian forums...
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Post by archangel62 »

Well, the turbo situation has changed somewhat. Turns out one of my "GT2860 disco potato" turbos was just a T28 from an S14 Silvia. Would explain why I got it so cheap. So, I dug up another "GT2860 disco potato" which was indeed as it claimed - however upon further inspection the workshop advised me the turbine was damaged from something hitting it, and recommended against using it. Disheartened, I asked how much power a T28 would be good for, and they explained the turbo itself could still support 180rwkw (engine/flow/etc pending), and that it would do so with better response than the famous GT2860RS disco potato. I was pretty stunned - for some reason I thought the 2860 was a more responsive turbo. Turns out this cloud has a silver lining.

So, I'm going with the T28. I'd rather response at this stage, and I'm sure 180rwkw would be plenty. I just want it to feel as fast as the 180SX I drifted in Japan, which I estimate would have about that much power. Add in a little extra response and the linear driveability of a live-axle and Isuzu suspension, and the Piazza should be a fantastic package. I'll probably rebuild the 'potato and possibly fit it on the G180W turbo build (for my TX sedan) later on - hopefully the significantly higher head flow will offset the smaller displacement, and that's a car I'd happily run on 98RON.

Ironically I have a very agricultural battery charger at the moment - an unknown old alternator hooked up via V-belt to a big electronic motor. You can hook it up to a flat battery and generally start a car with it within 15-30 minutes... but beyond that I'm not sure how good it is (voltage regulation, amperage etc). I'm also not sure what RPM it produces... But I could always modify it. It's a hand-me-down from a somewhat "crazy scientist" relative, and it's saved my butt plenty of times. I might have to grab one of those Aldi charges one day though.

Cheers for the alternator solution - that alternator isn't in a car at present, but if it finds its way back, I'll be sure to hook that up. You've also explained there why my old TG (with the standard stuffed voltage reg in the dash) used to dimly light all sorts of warning lights during normal operation.

Totally agree on additives and pointlessly higher octane - although for the sake of a higher boost turbo motor, my tuner is fairly confident 91RON would cost a hell of a lot of power for my setup. It's still up in the air as to what it will be tuned for. I kinda wanted 91RON, but I said that if it really doesn't like it, and won't make the 180rwkw I'm chasing, that he has license to go for 98RON instead, and perhaps he'll just go straight to that without trying 91... We'll see. I just hope that if he does a 98RON tune, that it will tolerate 91RON pending respectful driving. If not, it's going to be far more prohibitive than I'd have liked. If I can figure out the damn ECU, I could probably take some timing out myself if need be, but I couldn't even figure out how to adjust the tune based on my quick look before I dropped it off. I would toy with the idea of permanent E10, but I've heard that their mixes are very inconsistent, and the potential to attract condensation and consequentially rust is a concern, since I live in a very cold yet humid area (we're essentially in a cloud).
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Post by IZU069 »

You're talking about "not figuring out" the uTech ECU? I know I wasn't too rapt in them though I don't recall why - other than the caveat order ALL (possibly) required modules with the raw unit 'cos otherwise they'd cost $200-$300 per upgrade. But they were one of the few with raw reluctor input, however features and costs may have changed.
But you know my Delco/Delphi recommendation though I don't recall any turbo setups, but they have provision for turbos. But at least their retuning ($bins) is fairly well understood - there are a few for the G200W etc.


And the Jap Piazza had 180HP (engine) available for the 4ZC1-t which seemed to be merely the ECU as I couldn't find any mechanical spec differences. My blown "Jap import" 4ZC1-t might be one of those but with the Aussie crap ECU.
Ooops - now I see you are talking kW, not paltry HP... I did pick up on the rw power though, and I wondered what my Guru would suggest for a build. [ It was only through a recent chance encounter with another outside-Bellettian that I learned of my Guru's Piazza suggestion - in his case a cam and DROPPING boost from ~14psi to 10psi. ]

But of course I'm into torque rather than power. For street use my $200 G200W exhaust beat every vehicle I came across. Will your 180rwkW do 300Nm @ 2k? If not, I'll beat you too. (Actually you have to beat that by 30% for the Piazza's weight.)


Your battery charger sounds like a UPS (the best being quick start diesels that take over from motors to drive an alternator).
As you surmised (correctly) - an alternator is often the best initial charger a battery. IE - they can push more than the ROT (Rule Of Thumb) 20A for battery reconditioning - but that assumes it'll do it at (say) 14.2 or 14.4V whereas I suspect >20A battery charger pushers will go to higher voltages if needed (equalisation voltages) which are not supported by car alternators.
There should be nothing stopping you changing its alternator for another - eg, a modern internal fan & regulator type. As long as the motor has the required power output, and I'd expect 3000 RPM would be fine; maybe even 1500RPM. (Power-wise, let's see - 20A @ 15V = 300W, so say 350-400W allowing for inefficiency; ie, a 1.5A to 2A single phase 230VAC motor?)
Of course that's not a long-term (float) solution, but for those that don't want to sink $hundreds into big-Amp chargers. Most of us simply mount the battery in the car and use the engine. Others modify PC PSUs - $10 PSU's capable of over 20A with a few resistor changes (on the voltage feedback loop) plus disconnection of any undervoltage components (like 5V or 12V output capacitors).
Personally I reckon that with a car alternator and the $30 Aldi charger you have a system that would take 10x the expense to beat. (Unless you have a Bosch alternator - they simply are not worth the risk on flat batteries!)

BTW - do you have reserve capital for those extractors? (Or did you pay me? - I still haven't checked.)
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Hey again, sorry for the slack reply. I think I'm juggling too many things these days - a few Facebook pages, a million cars, full time job, etc.

In the search for response, I definitely hope it will have torque. For the sake of turbo cars, I generally put them under the same umbrella. The exciting news is the dyno tuning is now complete, and with it, Jaustech have overcome a whole bunch of issues that cropped up. I'll move this across to my build thread now, since it's moved away from the original topic :)

Build thread for dyno results:
viewtopic.php?t=1702&start=90

Re: exhaust, I don't recall having paid you for it - I vaguely remember last time I tried, you said not to worry unless/until I use it. More than happy to shoot you some money for it though, send me a PM with details!
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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:salute:
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