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Bugle
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Post by Bugle »

If it wasn't actually siezed to begin with it's probably fine. Maybe the timing belt has just never been replaced and it finally gave up.
Any oil leaks from the front of the engine putting oil onto the belt?
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GeminiCoupe
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

Dont think so because the belt was dry of oil, i suspect theres an oil leak from elsewhere though. Turbo feels ok, a tiny bit of shaft play side-to-side and up/down. No play in or out, just hope the seals are ok. Oh, and theres a big ass crack in the manifold too...

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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Rodeobob
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Post by Rodeobob »

Good pics Nick.

What is it with Piazzas and dented LH guards. blah.

Dont suppose your going to let on what you paid. lol.

That belt interests me.
Its not broken its stripped.
I take it you didnt pull the belt off. I would be interested to know if it was at the crank or the cam that it stripped.
Id say crank as its got less teeth and hence less grip on the belt. I cant see the crank stopping and the cam still going.
On the 2.3L Rodeo i had here the belt had actually broken.

Does the belt look old and fatigued??? IE: hard and brittle???? Like Bugle said it might never have been done. 140K you said, 15yrs and 40k overdue would do it. If its the case it was lucky to last that long.

You said the cam turned over fine by hand till it wanted to lift a valve, that would tell me that the cam seizing wasnt what broke the belt.

The next thing would be the flaking oil shit could indicate that its been hot as well as neglected. Did it have water/coolant in it before you started???
Its possible its been cooked and the head is warped and the cam tunnel isnt flat any more.

Or its also possible that the oil pump has seized. That could make a mess of the belt.
Do the teeth on the belt that arent stripped look like they have been "jumped"????

Either way once youve got the belt off you will have a good idea of if its worth fixing.
The turbo being ok is a good sign. I take it you got that bolt undone behind the dump pipe without to much drama???

You will know as soon as i do tomorrow if that Shuttle i found is a 2L or a 1.8L. If its a 2L theres a head (i was gunna keep it for myself :yawinkle: ). If your bottom end is stuffed bare long motors are $50 at pick a part this week im told by the arse-cog. See how long a std shuttle bottom end will last under your right foot. You could just about go to the bank on a Shuttle being at the wreckers because of the rust, not the driveline.

If i get a chance tomorrow i will give you a bell and swing past.

Any dramas give me a call and pick my brain.


Cheers. Bob.
Too many Piazzas to little money.

Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
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GeminiCoupe
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

I doubt it stripped at the crank end as it actually has MORE grip [in theory, i havent really looked at how the belts are run on the 4Z] - the angle of wrap of the belt is always larger on the larger pulley, hence more teeth in contact, hence the smaller pulley should slip first. The belt itself actually looked pretty new - it wasnt cracked in between the teeth and it didnt look old, i actually thought it was a new one till i noticed the huge chunk missing out of it.
The next thing would be the flaking oil shit could indicate that its been hot as well as neglected. Did it have water/coolant in it before you started???
Its possible its been cooked and the head is warped and the cam tunnel isnt flat any more.
The oil in the car was actually pretty fresh and clean, the flakey crap looks like someones neglected it early in its life and its been that way ever since. Ive never experienced this in an engine before, including my G161z shitter which, despite the cracked oil ring on cyl one and hammered bottom end bearing, always had gold oil upon service. Dont think the head has been warped as the oil looks devoid of water [doesnt look like milkshake] and the water [yes, WATER, fucking dipshits] is just dirty with no oil.


Its possible its been cooked and the head is warped and the cam tunnel isnt flat any more.
Wouldnt using a straight edge quickly confirm that?
You will know as soon as i do tomorrow if that Shuttle i found is a 2L or a 1.8L. If its a 2L theres a head (i was gunna keep it for myself ). If your bottom end is stuffed bare long motors are $50 at pick a part this week im told by the arse-cog. See how long a std shuttle bottom end will last under your right foot. You could just about go to the bank on a Shuttle being at the wreckers because of the rust, not the driveline.
Let me know how that goes, by long motor you mean sump to rocker, no manifolds/accessories yeah? How hard is it to rip it out of the shuttle?

Im thinking one of three things as i need to get this car started by next sunday:

- Take a risk with this engine and bolt a new head onto it
- Bolt my red engine in which i know has a weeping headgasket. It would require a gearbox conversion at the same time [something i was going to do later but would really be pressed for time to do now]
-Take a risk with the Shuttle engine, bolt all the 4ZC1T manifolds on that and bolt the flex plate and off i go.

What do you think?

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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Bugle
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Post by Bugle »

Yeah the cam pulley is the bigger one..
I reckon Shuttle would be the worth while if it has good compression. I suppose it doesn't have those lil air squirter thingos above the inlet valves so I don't know what the effect of that is.. The compression ratio is slightly higher than a Piazza 4ZC1 7.9 or 8.2:1 depending on where you read it vs Shuttle 8.3:1 so that might be better.
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wedgenut
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Post by wedgenut »

Looking at the belt it looks exactly like a camshaft seize but it it could just have got tight without actually seizing and been enough for the crank to strip the teeth out. Another cause is the belt getting hot from farked idler bearings, they are cheap single row deep groove ball bearings so change them if in doubt. One reason for cam tightening is rocker shaft wear. The cam is the last thing to get oil and before it gets there it has to fill the rocker shaft tubes. If the rockers are a bit worn on the shafts a lot of pressure bleeds out all over the shop and doesn't leave a lot of oomph to shove it through to the bearing journals. It is normally okay if you do the aged engine routine of a quiet warm up before wringing its neck but in the case of turn the key and red line it you risk camshaft nipping up.

The cause of mine (before I got it) was blocked oil filter so it bypassed and sent shit up the pipes which blocked the oil way to No. 2 journal. Stuffed the journal completely.

People gotta learn that oil and filters are cheaper than heads and cams and turbos need it more than most.
So many cars, so little cash
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Rodeobob
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Post by Rodeobob »

GeminiCoupe wrote:I doubt it stripped at the crank end as it actually has MORE grip [in theory, i havent really looked at how the belts are run on the 4Z] - the angle of wrap of the belt is always larger on the larger pulley, hence more teeth in contact, hence the smaller pulley should slip first.
The smaller one is the crank, same as a chain motor. 2 turns of the crank to one of the cam so the one on the crank is half the size in teeth and hence diameter.
GeminiCoupe wrote:The belt itself actually looked pretty new - it wasnt cracked in between the teeth and it didnt look old, i actually thought it was a new one till i noticed the huge chunk missing out of it.
I wouldnt call that a good sign.
GeminiCoupe wrote:
Its possible its been cooked and the head is warped and the cam tunnel isnt flat any more.
Wouldnt using a straight edge quickly confirm that?
Yep thats the idea. Bolted to the block is the best spot to do it but on the bench if its off the motor.
GeminiCoupe wrote:
You will know as soon as i do tomorrow if that Shuttle i found is a 2L or a 1.8L. If its a 2L theres a head (i was gunna keep it for myself ). If your bottom end is stuffed bare long motors are $50 at pick a part this week im told by the arse-cog. See how long a std shuttle bottom end will last under your right foot. You could just about go to the bank on a Shuttle being at the wreckers because of the rust, not the driveline.
Let me know how that goes, by long motor you mean sump to rocker, no manifolds/accessories yeah? How hard is it to rip it out of the shuttle?
Yeah thats right for a long motor. But depends whos on the gate at the joint if the slug you for the sump and valve cover.

How hard??? not that hard, ive done worse. Bonus is the motor is well behind the front suspension crossmember (radiator bolts to it) and things are easy to get at from underneath. There is an Xmember type bar that bolts up under the motor for the mounts, its easy to get out. The motor with no box will lift up and come out thru the side door once youve unbolted all the engine covers that will come out. Its a bit tricky, you need an engine lift thats say less than 6-8" from the hook to the top of the arm or else the sump wont clear the bit of the fire wall/bulkhead that doesnt bolt out. Its my prefered way, well on concrete it would be.
Ive done the jack the bus right up and drop the motor on the ground and drag it out method too. Im no fan, on the RHS is the fuel tank and on the LHS behind the wheel is the drop well for the battery. You always bang your head on that thing, DOH. You have to lay the motor over on the exhaust side (manifold removed) and grunt if the bus is high enough the carby and manifold will clear when you drag the motor out.
The best way ive found so far is to get the angle grinder out and cut a big hole that extends back past the back of the gearbox. Double check what your cutting thru before you get into it (kaboom). Grab the pinch weld from one of the front doors and clip that over where youve cut so you dont rip yourself to bits.

Sorry i didnt call you i was running a bit late and under the pump. I sent my mate off for a wander and he said there was no Shuttle. Arse cog and another chap i was talkin to up there tonight said there was one, the guy told me it was a 1.8L, going by the Pickapart website its an 84 so that figures, the 2L wasnt till 86.
GeminiCoupe wrote:Im thinking one of three things as i need to get this car started by next sunday:

- Take a risk with this engine and bolt a new head onto it
- Bolt my red engine in which i know has a weeping headgasket. It would require a gearbox conversion at the same time [something i was going to do later but would really be pressed for time to do now]
-Take a risk with the Shuttle engine, bolt all the 4ZC1T manifolds on that and bolt the flex plate and off i go.

What do you think?

Nick-
Have you got a head????
Figured out whats up with yours yet???

If you dont have a head ive got the better option. The head is weeping on the motor in the red car, take it off get it checked and put it on the silver one. Find a head later or get the silver one done to put back on the motor from the red car.

The converting to Manual might be a bit of an ask given the time frame.

That Shuttle option is pretty much out. Im sure the 1.8L motor would run reasonable but the Piazza distributor not fitting in the head would make for some serious pinging i would think.

I had a good find today. Good (well i think it is) 2.6L head and inlet manifold and plumbing and air box with AFM etc. The distributor and alternator off it too. Got an LSD Jackaroo diff centre that he forgot to charge me for.
Its a pitty the 2.6L head wont work on a 2L or else i would have bought it straight to your house.

Cheers. Bob.
Too many Piazzas to little money.

Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
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GeminiCoupe
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

Have you got a head????
Figured out whats up with yours yet???

If you dont have a head ive got the better option. The head is weeping on the motor in the red car, take it off get it checked and put it on the silver one. Find a head later or get the silver one done to put back on the motor from the red car.
GeminiCoupe wrote: wrote:
The belt itself actually looked pretty new - it wasnt cracked in between the teeth and it didnt look old, i actually thought it was a new one till i noticed the huge chunk missing out of it.

I wouldnt call that a good sign.
Refer to above. I dont want to waste time swapping heads over if the bottom end is farked.

Rodeobob" wrote:The converting to Manual might be a bit of an ask given the time frame.
Not really. Getting the engine and box in is the easy bit, the only hard-ask is swapping the pedalbox over. If i get a couple of people to help me ill have the engine in by the weekend, with everything running. Bit of Chemiweld into the red engine and she should be fine for the time being.

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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GeminiCoupe
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

I take it this is the dump pipe brace your talking about?

Image

Image

I will be swapping the engines over as i dont want to risk this one being a shit heap. Im thinking remove the brace off the dump, remove turbo with dump to gain better access to engine mount and lift it off like that? Do you think the studs in the turbo manifold will be strong enough to support the engine as i lift it out or am i better off hooking it up elsewhere.

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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Rodeobob
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Post by Rodeobob »

Yeah thats the bolt in there somewhere.


Theres no reason why you cant use the manifold to attatch to to lift the motor. Tie around the exhaust manifold between cyl 3 and 4.

I usually use two bolts or two studs and a short bit of chain. The lifting bracket at the front of the head on the rhs and the back exhaust stud. Just make sure youve got washers on so the nuts/bolts wont pull thru the chain. If you do the nut up tight to hold the chain you wont bend the bolt/stud and theres less chance of breakage.

I wouldnt use the turbo studs to lift the motor.



Chemi weld is a bit rough for my liking.
When was the last time the red cars motor had a new timing belt?????

You dont want to chance the motor in the silver car being crap. You got the head off it????
But your prepared to spend the time putting in a motor that leaks water at the head gasket.

Sorry dont follow your logic. I sort of get you point but i dont see why youd put in a leaking motor without getting it seen to first.

Bob
Too many Piazzas to little money.

Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
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dbraiki
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Post by dbraiki »

bob i've sent you a pm mate
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GeminiCoupe
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

You dont want to chance the motor in the silver car being crap. You got the head off it????
But your prepared to spend the time putting in a motor that leaks water at the head gasket.

Sorry dont follow your logic. I sort of get you point but i dont see why youd put in a leaking motor without getting it seen to first.
I was mucking around. Ive ordered a headgasket and timing belt for the red engine, just waiting on a price for a heavy duty clutch.

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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Rodeobob
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Post by Rodeobob »

GeminiCoupe wrote:I was mucking around.
What do you mean was?????

You still are, youve done nothing but muck since you first bought the red Piazza. :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga: :finga:


:butthead:


Bob.
Too many Piazzas to little money.

Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
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Rodeobob
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Post by Rodeobob »

dbraiki wrote:bob i've sent you a pm mate
Try again, coz i didnt get it.
Too many Piazzas to little money.

Currently unemployed. Watch this space.
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GeminiCoupe
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Post by GeminiCoupe »

Rodeobob wrote:What do you mean was?????

You still are, youve done nothing but muck since you first bought the red Piazza
Ive still had it less then youve had yours :finga: :finga: :finga:

VRS set $135
Timing belt $35

Sound fair? Should i just get a gasket instead of the VRS?

Nick-
project - 76 Gemini Coupe G200z EFI Turbo
daily - 02 S15 Nissan 200SX GTspecS Turbo
wet-weather fun toy - TX 75 Gemini Sedan G200z
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