TURBO

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standox94
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TURBO

Post by standox94 »

What kind of turbo can you get to for a g200z standard ?
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wedgenut
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Post by wedgenut »

G200z's were never fitted with turbos, the IHI RBH5 will fit if you have the correct manifold and plumbing. Best to make your own manifold and then you can fit any tiurbo you like. You should also lower the compression if you intend turbocharging to avoid piston failure. You will also need to be cautious on fuel delivery, you need more fuel for more air. Good luck
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Go on www.ozgemini.com and track down a guy called Gemracing. He makes T2 and T3 turbo headers for G series engines. I'd advise getting a T2 manifold from him, then fitting a T28bb or GT2860/GT2871RS (depending on application).

From there you'll want to go an aftermarket EFI system and consider forged pistons. It's no small job, but if you do all of the above you could make huge power.
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
standox94
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Post by standox94 »

awesome thanks guys
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

I can confirm that Gemracing's 4Z turbo manifolds WILL fit a 4ZC1-equipped Piazza. I bought one for my 4ZD1 build (for the track Gemini), but since the 4ZC1 is just sitting in the Piazza with no exhaust header, I thought I just had to try it. Yup, fits perfectly, miles of room. Obviously you'd need to sort out the turbo downpipe, and possibly inlet piping depenidng on turbo, but that's all normal stuff.

http://www.freewebs.com/gemracing/exhaustmanifolds.htm

I took some pics in the Piazza bay if anyone's interested (PM me, or I'll get around to it whenever), but yeah, two thumbs up, if you want performance, get one of Darren's (Gemracing's) 4Z turbo manifolds!
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Piazza_man
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Post by Piazza_man »

I'm interested in what your doing for the 4ZD1 build mate. Keep us posted. That's what I'll be doing soon. However I did notice that Thomas4parts also have a replacement setup for all for G and Z series for a little cheaper.
http://www.ozgemini.com/forums/non-tech ... hp?t=27672

Image

This setup retains the factory look and turbo position, but I do like that more aggressive setup of yours. I saw this on a 2.6 in an '04 Fast Fours issue. Looks like the same type if manifold.
Image
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Yeah, those look pretty neat too - I'd forgotten all about that thread, and it's sure to keep me entertained (and poor!) for a while. I do like the factory look, but it raises two distinct schools of thought - Gemracing's will flow more, because the relatively "tuned" length of each runner will distribute the bursts from each cylinder out of phase, so more constantly, but the other (Thomas4parts) manifold has less volume (so less room to lose pressure) as well as less room for heat (and thus capacity) loss in the air charges.

Real tough call as to which will make boost earlier. Trade-offs!

Alas, most importantly.... mmmm, spool rods. Yep, like I said, it'll keep me poor!
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Post by Piazza_man »

Judging from the size of that turbo on that Rodeo motor I'd say space would have been at a premium at the factory location, which would have been another reason for the high mount. I know I digress abit but I wonder the effects of oil supply/flow at cold startup (and even when hot for that matter) to the turbo considering the oil has an element of natural gravity feed down at the factory location. It doesn't appear to be an issue for this Rodeo motor considering it was making 527kw back in '04. It would seem the high mount tuned length headers offer more advantages than disadvantages. I'm no guru so I could be proven wrong by someone out there.
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Post by IZU069 »

The oil should be pressure driven and hence negligible effect. (Same too for water cooling.)

Whilst I know the MASSIVE effect exhaust tuning can make (viz: DOUBLE the acceleration for a twincam - ie, TWICE the torque at HALF the RPM!), I know not about the G-Z engines.
I'm sure some would argue that the turbo makes up for that, or makes it irrelevant, but I would disagree until reasonably explained....

FYI - whilst the standard G200W rebuild (similar to HDT) is good for 230HP & ~400Nm, there was a turbo equivalent with 390HP. (By standard I mean standard engine reliability, and coincidentally, little more than a standard engine.)
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Post by Piazza_man »

I was referring to that critical moment from when the engine starts to when the turbo receives the fluids via the mechanical pressures that you speak of. but if the turbo is sitting at a point where both fluids are drained away when the engine is off then surely thus is not a healthy thing for turbo longevity. Most of the damage can be done at startup. Does any of this make sense?
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Post by IZU069 »

Makes total sense.
And good points.

Not that coolant will drain out, but oil could.

However there should be enough residual or pooled oil for start up.
IMO the biggest strain (wear) would be the big ends - they get their full load within 3 cycles, yet they last ok.
[ In fact I was just explaining to a Gemmer today why Florians pistons would hit heads before 100,000km whereas Belletts didn't - same G161 (or G150) engine and oil pump, but different oil sump & pickup. Cornering with low oil in a Florian meant missed oil-pickup (too quick for the oil pressure light to activate) and hence big-end collapse. ]

If revving hard enough to damage the turbo when cold, I doubt the turbo would be the main concern.


And as with any start, the 2 important oil attributes are adhesion and crush. Adhesion to stick to surfaces between feeds, and crush - the molecular "strength" that separates the 2 metals.

Not that I haven't considered an electric oil-pressure primer to build up pressure before starting....
IZU069 - ISUZU means a lot to me.
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Interesting points, just poisting a "short" reply now because I'm zonked. I'm somewhat skeptical of the true advantage of tuned exhausts - whilst it can only help, I'd imagine the expansion/compression of exhaust gases would negate a lot of the benefits. That motor of yours sure intrigues me Peter, but I must say I'm rather cynical of the accuracy of wheel dyno's at the best of times - to borrow some audio terms, I'd say they're better at "plotting frequency response" than "overall gain" - pending accurate "road" loading! Alas, I digress, and am more than happy to hear good figures from twincams!

As for oil drainback, Isuzu G and presumably 4Z engines may have anti drainback check valves in the oil filter itself I believe (don't hold me to this though), and the tolerances and design of the oil pump itself most likely won't allow much/any drainback. Whilst the minor weeping of oil from shot bearings etc will inevitibly cost the pressure, the oil itself shouldn't need to be pumped right through again. I know this because my mate's Piazza (and all of my Geminis) have some measure of pressure a split second after turning the key - the longest I've ever seen to kill the oil light threshold was 1-2 seconds, on a coughing, spluttering, low RPM hot start. By comparison, the ladyfriend's KE20 really obviously allows oil drainback, it takes a good 2-5 seconds to kill the oil light (my KE20 was the same), and sounds like an absolute truck in the interim! Not very reassuring.. Pretty poor design, really.

I wouldn't worry about oil draining back down the supply line. It might take a few seconds to gain full pressure, but the turbo won't be spinning too fast in this time, and should have a film of oil on the mating surfaces of the bearings to get it by. As Peter said, I too have thought about an electrically driven primer... and, if you're needing turbo lubrication on a cold engine, you've got bigger things to worry about!! hahaha.

Coolant, however. I do worry about air bubbles, but failing that, it shouldn't be able to draw back to anything besides more coolant - ie, air shouldn't be able to get in there anyway.

Start-ups - go easy... Turning off - turbo timer! :D
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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archangel62
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Post by archangel62 »

Yeah. Me and my short replies.
Indigo - '76 TX Gemini sedan, G180W+T project,
Abigail - '81 TE sedan, white, G180W ITB project,
New Hotness - TG Gemini drift car, orange, 4ZE1+T
Tardis - 1986 Piazza 4ZC1-T, black, forged, 136rwkw @13psi
Coupe - TX coupe grip car, "do it later", G180W+twin carbs
Trevor aka Jimmy's Gem - Grandpa-spec TD
BA Falcon - Tow car
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Piazza_man
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Post by Piazza_man »

Valid points mate. BTW did you get my pm?
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Post by IZU069 »

If archangel is competing with my SHORT posts, I'll have to delete them. (That's how OzGem dealt with "competition". And truth.)


Don't worry archy, those dyno results were valid. Despite being experienced & expert engine builders & tuners, they had their dyno tested "because it was obviously faulty... - ie, a 2L engine cannot provide 300Nm at 2,000RPM. But their dyno checked out fine.

The other confirmations came from:
- the results being exactly as my guru said they'd be (in fact, he was rather conservative, though I'm not sure if he meant engine versus wheel outputs);
- the results being the same as other twincams with the same mods (though most of these were with the forged pistons and 220-230 HP outputs, and may have had different torque curves to suit racing rather than my road use - ie, peak torque & hence most efficient fuel economy at ~3,000 RPM);
- that this "standard" Florian with G200W & 5-speed box beat the crap out of many a hot car (and usually in 5th gear!).


Tuned exhausts are well documented. That is what extractors are all about.
Having said that however, it amazes me how many extractors these days are purely bling/cosmetic or exhaust replacements - eg, I asked 2 manufacturers of Jackaroo 4ZE1 extractors about how they were tuned (4ZE1 manifolds typically crack). Tuning? Nah mate, they were simply built for a easy fit. Neither knew the performance enhancement or detriment compared to the standard 4ZE1. (Thank Dog they are EFI!!)
And again, my G200W HDT-like build proved the point. Whilst the GTR-replica inlet manifolds & twin DCOE45s increased output from 135HP to 150HP, that will not change the torque curve appreciably - that was solely due to the "shaping" by the extended 2:1 section.
And I won't repeat my comments about 4:1 systems for the GW engines....


FYI - AFAIAC, turbo timers should be unnecessary for Piazzas since they have water cooled turbos.
Timers became fashionable for non-coolant cooled turbos, though heavy racing may be another matter.
IZU069 - ISUZU means a lot to me.
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